Hi Everyone,

For those on the Alfa Digest, you may have already read this -- or you will soon.
I've wounded my '94 164LS -- hopefully not fatally.
Today I replaced the right rear and front engine mounts on my 164. It required jacking the engine up a considerable amount to get the proper clearance. After spending nearly 8 hours replacing the mounts, I put everything back together and took the car for a test drive. That's when it all went wrong.
The car started up and ran fine for about a minute. Then it started stumbling upon acceleration. Then, on top of that, it would stumble even when I just tried revving it. Then, it just started running poorly altogether -- I could barely move. Finally, it would start and run like it was on 3 cylinders, and the smell of raw gas was strong. Giving it any gas causes it to stall now. I checked the engine codes and got 1-2-2-4. I believe that's the O2 sensor, right? I checked the engine bay for any fuel injection/ignition electrical wires that may have gotten stressed when the engine was jacked up for the mount replacement. The most likely ones I saw were the two wires that plug into the "canister" like device between the intake plenum and the firewall. One other possibility I thought of was this (oh, and this is another reason why 24V owners should leave mount replacement to an expert!). Jacking the engine caused the poly-serpentine drive belt to get pushed in to the inner fender, resulting in a light tear on the flat (non ribbed) part of the belt. Could it be that this flap of material may have been rubbing against the wiring for some sensor around the serpentine belt? Just a thought. Anyway, any help would be appreciated! I'm probably just gonna have to send the car to the shop on Monday.

Thanks in advance,

Adam R.
'94 164LS

...actually completely unrelated to my
motor mount replacement. The car had a
bad fuel pump. And yes, it is coincidental
that it occurred with my replacement of
the engine mounts, but there are two
factors that verify that, indeed, this was
the correct repair.

1) The car has exhibited similar behavior
once before
2) The gas tank was nearly empty prior to
the repair.

So I'm quite happy that it wasn't the timing
belt! Thanks again to everyone for their
advice, and hopefully I'll see all you ARA
members this Sunday at Sears Point.

Cheers,

Adam R.
'94 164LS
'70 Triumph Spitfire Mk3

I have just finished doing the second rear engine mount. (two different 164s) You can't really raise the motor enough to clear the rear engine mount stud. You have to drop the rear part of subframe (loose front side) while supporting/raising the rear side of the engine. A tip for future 164 owners planing to do the rear engine mount replacement. Sorry to hear it Adam, I am going to think about what went wrong with your case.

tj
95 164Q
94 164LS

Hi TJ,

Yes, I eventually did remove the subframe bolts in the rear to get the added clearance for the rear mount. What an absolute pain it was to do that.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts. In the meantime, I think I am going to take the car to Italian Performance in San Carlos, CA tomorrow and have Don take a look. I am still holding out hope that it is merely some sort of Motronic sensor gone bad.

Adam
'94 164LS
'70 Triumph Spitfire Mk3

Sounds to me like you forced the T-belt to skip teeth when you pushed it into the fire wall. The sensor is NOT at fault. Now that the combustion is full rich because those cylinders do not compress; the raw gas fouls the sensor and hence the 1224 (also 1223 if you check all the codes)
All other sensors that the guys mentioned if disconected would not allow you to start at all. I hope that you didn't mess up any valves. It was a bad idea to make it run like that.
Leave it be!! Don't even start it. Let the dealer put a new belt in and see what happens.

GOOD LUCK to you my friend!

Taso.

http://www.geocities.com/alfataso/alfapages.html

Hi Taso,

I just had a thought about your response to my problem. I think you may be thinking that I started the engine while the timing belt cover was being pushed into the dogbone support. That certainly would likely have caused the belt to jump.
However, this was not the case -- I didn't run the engine at all until it was back down on the mounts and the dogbone mount was well clear of the timing belt cover, so there would have been no mechanical contact between the t-belt cover and the belt at any point while the engine was running.
With that being said, do you still think it could be the timing belt, or does this new information change your diagnosis?

Thanks again for your help,

Adam R.
'94 164LS
'70 Triumph Spitfire Mk3

Hi Taso,

Thanks for the reply. I certainly hope that you're wrong on this one. One thing I didn't mention was that when I originally started the engine, it ran and idled smoothly for the first minute or so, then started running rough. However, per Dave's advice, I may pull the timing cover and see what I can find. Ultimately, though, I am just inclined to send it to the shop and pray. I think I am over my head mechanically with the 164.

Adam

Sorry to hear that Adam. You know, that belt's real close to the coolant temp sensor and its wiring leads, right? The other one you referred to is the idle control device.
Both are critical ECU input/output.

Dave Jarman
Lexington KY
USA

Hi Dave,

First of all, good to hear from you again on the board! The coolant temp sensor was my first thought, as I'd heard many things before about that sensor causing this type of erratic running when it gets knocked around. I may just have to pull the wheel and fender liner again tomorrow and see if a wire came loose, or see if jiggling the wires around a little improves the car's running at all.
Another sensor in that vicinity is the RPM sensor, although I don't believe that it comes in contact anywhere close to the serpentine belt -- just one of the pulleys.
Dave (or anyone else), do you know of any speicific means of testing these sensors for proper function? I have the CarDisc, but the factory manual is somewhat vague.

Thanks in advance!

Adam R.
'94 164LS
'70 Triumph Spitfire Mk3

There is a test you can do on the sensor, if I recall it's in the Motronic section under Electrical (my Cardisc went with the LS to Sam!). Or, you can simply check the resistance cold (use 20k ohm scale). Under Motronic, all input devices to the ECU are listed and discussed in detail, along with how to verify them.
You know, Taso's got a point there Adam. If you're going to get into the fender well anyway, why not pull the timing belt cover and check alignment of the pulley marks with TDC? At least you'd sleep better tonight knowing something more about it!

Dave Jarman
Lexington KY
USA