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Terry Johnston
Member since Feb-12-04
124 posts		 Dec-09-04, 04:37 PM (EST)
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"Fuel Smell Cont'd"
 
   Am still trying to figure out a fuel smell. It is most noticable when the tank is full. Defintiely coming from rear. As I mentioend feore I occasionally see fuel dripping off the tankfrom the driver side. To date I have put o rings on the fuel pump access plate w/sealant, replaced the filler hose and replace clamps. The fuel pump and the little rubber hose were replace about two years ago and I do not think there are any issues there. One thing I noticed with the tank about half fuel when I opened the tank there was no pressure release-not sure if that is normal or abnormal. I have also noticed that when driving at low rpm I will occasionallly get a hesitation. I am thinking there should be a fuel pressure issue due to leakage somewhere. The car starts immediately. I wonder if there is a way to pressurize the system to see if there are any leaks (much like when the mechaninc pressurizes the radiator). Terry


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mjkhpns
Member since Oct-22-01
2746 posts		 Dec-09-04, 11:10 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Fuel Smell Cont'd"
In response to message #0
 
   According to service manual you can pressurize system by applying low low low pressure to fresh air check valve on vapor cannister located to right of ski boot under front trunk wall carpet. I did it by disconnecting large diameter hose going from tank to cannister but to test lines on top of tank maybe going through check valve is way to go. Do not exceed 2 or 3 psi. I teed in a 0-10 psi gauge to be safe. Found leak in tank cover bolts using soapy water solution.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA

91 White 164B Originale
91 Black 164L Alfa Rescue Society project
91 Green 164L Another Rescue Project (My son's)

A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine


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Terry Johnston
Member since Feb-12-04
124 posts		 Dec-10-04, 04:26 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Fuel Smell Cont'd"
In response to message #1
 
   The hoses attached to the pump cover and pump seem to be a hard vinyl similiar to what you can get at the Home Depot. If I find an issue could I replace them with vinyl hose? I think the next step will be to top the tank off and use the soapy water on various connections un the trunk. Terry


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Terry Johnston
Member since Feb-12-04
124 posts		 Dec-11-04, 06:17 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Fuel Smell Cont'd"
In response to message #2
 
   The beat goes on. Filled the car up with gas. Ran it with the trunk interior out and sprayed the pump access plate and fuel level plate with soapy water. Saw no indication of leakage. NOW HERE IS WHERE IT GETS INTERESTING. Jacked the car up from the passenger side jacking point. Gas was leaking like a sieve coming out on the driver side of the fuel tank. I think it is coming from the area where the fuel lines go forward. I doubt it is the fuel lines as the car starts and idles fine. My suspect is one of the vapors vent lines. The one on the driver side rear of the tank I can feel and I think is fine. There are two more one on the passenger side rear and the front of the tank. Will see if I can feel those I really don't want to remove the tank. I may try to partially lower it. Any suggestions? Terry


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bob328
Member since Nov-10-03
37 posts		 Dec-12-04, 12:53 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Fuel Smell Cont'd"
In response to message #3
 
   Hi Terry -

Had a similar problem with my '91B a couple years ago. In my case fuel was dripping from the fuel lines just forward of the tank. It turned out that the return line had chafed through on the underbody causing a leak. After thinking about the hassle of refitting another steel line, I instead cut out the damaged section and clamped on a short section of fuel injection hose. No further problems. Hope your fix can be as simple. Good luck.

Cheers from Port Townsend -
Bob
'91 B&L
'69 GTV

Bob


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donatelli
Member since Oct-15-01
7 posts		 Dec-12-04, 03:09 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Fuel Smell Cont'd"
In response to message #0
 
   Terry,
Had a similar problem on my 91 164L. Replacing the tank hoses, o-rings, and seals did not solve the problem. My mechanic eventually found a crack in one of the hard plastic hoses which connect to the vapor recovery cannister. I think he used some type of sniffer to locate the bad hose. Good luck. Don
donatelli


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Terry Johnston
Member since Feb-12-04
124 posts		 Dec-12-04, 06:32 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Fuel Smell Cont'd"
In response to message #5
 
   Well it looks like I will have to lower the gas tank. Since the tank is now full I quess I'll drive it a bit to to empty it. Don't want to lower it with a full tank. Should not be too much of a fire hazard as it has been like this for sometime. Hope full I can lower it enough to get access and not have to remove completely. On the subject of the hard plastic hoses are those just vinly hoses or should I use FI rubber hoses to replace? Terry


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mjkhpns
Member since Oct-22-01
2746 posts		 Dec-12-04, 08:30 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: Fuel Smell Cont'd"
In response to message #6
 
   Maybe it is return line from fuel rail to tank. Why don't you disconnect it from pressure regulator outlet on fuel rail on engine a blow some air through it and see if you can hear and see leak. Maybe if it it close to front of tank you can disconnect it from fuel pump cover and pull it forward enough to repair it by splicing it.

If you do disconnect it from fuel pump cover slip on a metal splice and long fuel resistant flexible tubing so if you pull it across top of tank you will have a repair piece already in place. It is a black plastic like tube.

See page 04-10 in shop manual for picture of fuel tank and lines.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA

91 White 164B Originale
91 Black 164L Alfa Rescue Society project
91 Green 164L Another Rescue Project (My son's)

A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine


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Terry Johnston
Member since Feb-12-04
124 posts		 Dec-15-04, 05:30 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Fuel Smell Cont'd"
In response to message #7
 
   An update! Got the Tank out and found the vapors vent on the rear of the tank (driver side) connects into a short rubber hose that connects to the tank. That short piece of line has a rip in it. To be on the safe side I am going to drive down to Salt Lake and have the Harris Imports senior mechanic(really good and a good guy) look at it to see if he finds any other issues although I am 99% sure that this will solve the problem. Of course once that is fixed all I have to do is get the tank back in! That should be lovely as it is not the most wieldy thing in the world!! Terry


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Alex Shepherd
Member since Jan-1-04
227 posts		 Dec-20-04, 05:55 AM (EST)
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9. "RE: Fuel Smell Cont'd"
In response to message #8
 
   Thanks for the update, it was good to hear that it was (yet another) vent hose... I had the same problem (as I mentioned in a post in the 'old' thread) but I think my fuel tank must be set-up differently to yours because I could get the pipes off with the tank in place.

I guess the thing we can agree on is that (a) it's very satisfying when you do find the problem, and (b) it's pretty obvious when you do (obvious split in pipe, etc.)

Best of luck with it,
-Alex

'88 Bertone X1/9
'88 FIAT Uno Turbo
'92 Alfa 164 3.0V6


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Terry Johnston
Member since Feb-12-04
124 posts		 Dec-21-04, 10:53 AM (EST)
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10. "RE: Fuel Smell Cont'd"
In response to message #9
 
   Got the tank back in and everything is connected. It was not that bad for a 164 project! The fuel smell is now gone and there is pressure in the tank. Still getting a slight hesitation at low steady rpm. I changed spark plugs to a colder plug and that has improved things but not perfect yet. Will be checking electrical connections. Terry


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donatelli
Member since Oct-15-01
7 posts		 Dec-21-04, 06:13 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Fuel Smell Cont'd"
In response to message #10
 
   Terry,
I have a similar problem with my 91 L. After an engine rebuild, the car had an occasional hesitation or flat spot between 2-3k rpm. Sometimes the condition would intensify, and the car would buck as if the engine were cutting on and off. Unfortunately, the car ran fine whenever I took it in for service. Error codes pointed to the O2 sensor and that was replaced along with the throttle switch. The crank sensor was supposedly replaced when the engine was rebuilt.

Now the car has a slight stumble at idle and the occasional flat spot at 2-3k. More of an irritant than a drivability problem. Besides the O2 sensor, I have checked the fuel pump intake for trash, replaced tank hoses and o-rings, replaced plugs, cap, rotor, and wires, replaced intake plenum and runner hoses, replaced idle control grommet, cleaned the AFM, idle control, and temp sensor contacts, cleaned the injector harness contacts. I also tried a different AFM. Next up is to clean the grounds and check the wiring continuity to the sensors and injectors. I also may try a different heat range plug.

Given that I am not experiencing a hard failure, I am leaning toward some type of intermittent electrical gremlin. Anecdotally, the ABS light remains illuminated due to a bad ABS sensor and varies in intensity during rainy weather. Anyway, if I have any luck tracing down the problem I will post to the Digest.

donatelli
donatelli


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Terry Johnston
Member since Feb-12-04
124 posts		 Dec-22-04, 06:05 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Fuel Smell Cont'd"
In response to message #11
 
   To paraphase Henry Higgins of My Fair Lady 'Ithink I've got it!'. My intermittent hesitation appears to be fixed. I started to inspect the electrics and the first thing I checked after the grounds was the water temperature sensor of the injection system. I had replace the the connector some months ago as the old one was shot. I had used crimp type connectors to splice in the new connector. On inspection it turned out that wone of the wires was loose. I have now soldered shrink wrapped the the wires and gotten rid of the crimp connectors and voila no more hesitation! Terry


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