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italianpride
Member since Apr-15-07
6 posts		 Apr-15-07, 08:32 PM (EST)
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"Tranny help 91 164L"
 
   Hello all, new member, long time reader. Ive read lots post and my guess would be to change the accumulator spring. Have a 91 164L Auto, there is slight rough shift from P to Reverse, and slight delay into drive. the major problem is the shift fron 2nd to 3rd. at regular or fast throttle when it goes to shift into third the engine races and instintly i would let off the gas and it would slam into 3rd. i parked the car in the fall a few weeks after it started. now is warm and i got it in the garage anxious to get it back on the road. As i was driving the first time it happened, coming off a corner merging into traffic it was like shifting gears in a manual tranny and not letting the clutch out but pressing the gas. Also if it is the spring causing this should i replace anything else while in there? govenor seals??
Also a question where might be the best place for the flex pipes, anyplace in canada?

Oil pressure gauge reads normal when first started after warming up it seems to drop quite a bit, and rises with more throttle, the oil level is fine, any idea???

Thanks in advance to any help

Julian

91 164L
79 Alfetta
87 Eldo


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mjkhpns
Member since Oct-22-01
3851 posts		 Apr-15-07, 09:28 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Tranny help 91 164L"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-07 AT 09:32 PM (EST)
 
Do accumulator springs first and see if problem goes away. they are in valve body on top of tranny under steel cover. As for governor seals they are under side cover which is a seperate project and may not be needed for your problem. If you have read my post on tranny repair you have info on where to get springs and what to remove to get to them.

Any good muffler shop should have flex pipes and be able to weld them in for you.

As for oil pressure sender problem replace it or live with indicator as is. Usually they go bad quite frequently. You can always check pressure with a direct reading gauge at hot idle if you like.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
sdpatchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/tech/index.asp
http://www.aroc-usa.org/

Daily drivers: 91 Bianco 164B ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento 164B aka Quik Silver ALFA 4US
164L Rescue projects: 93 Rosso, 91 Argento, 91 Nero (now an organ donor); 91 Verde 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"


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italianpride
Member since Apr-15-07
6 posts		 Apr-17-07, 05:07 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Tranny help 91 164L"
In response to message #1
 
   Hi again, i contacted erickson ind. today. described how when shifting from 2nd to 3rd the engine revs like in nuetral then slams into 3rd when revs come down. was told that it wasnt the springs but the kickdown cable. Does anyone know the procedure to check the cable? or what to look for? Thanks

91 164L
79 Alfetta
87 Eldo


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Del
Member since Dec-14-02
1405 posts		 Apr-17-07, 05:34 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Tranny help 91 164L"
In response to message #2
 
   LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-07 AT 05:36 PM (EST)
 
Steve forgets that one can easily fix most of the low reading oil pressure senders by drilling the little hole, thus saving a bit of coin, or not living with the low/zero readings. These senders are not well designed, and have a leaky inner seal. The hole relieves the internal pressure which causes the low readings but the internal leak isn't enough to be a worry otherwise. Have run for many thousands of miles on fixed senders.

Del

Seattle

89 Milano
91 164S
94 164LS
72 Morgan 27


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italianpride
Member since Apr-15-07
6 posts		 Apr-17-07, 08:21 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Tranny help 91 164L"
In response to message #3
 
   LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-07 AT 08:23 PM (EST)
 
Thanks for the info Del.
Update to the kickdown cable, my uncle looked at it with me and said it is still attached and strong though the motion. Im not a mechanic so any help would be great, My dad is very good with vehicles but is laid up from a serious work injury at the momment. I am thinking of getting into the tranny to check the accumulator spring, i have printed out the post with the step by step instuctions, but since talking to erickson they said it wouldnt be that. any other ideas?? should i order the spring to have?

91 164L
79 Alfetta
87 Eldo


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c m smith
Member since Oct-13-01
828 posts		 Apr-17-07, 09:43 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Tranny help 91 164L"
In response to message #4
 
   Remember that the oil pressure gauge will read lower as the oil heats up. This is the main function of this gauge, it tells you when the oil has warmed up by showing lower pressure.

Also, when you raise the revs the oil pressure will rise a little.

Only if the warm pressure reading is very low should you worry about the gauge not working correctly and even then it is the relative position of the gauge needle that gives you the info you need, not the absolute position of the needle. The dash gauge isn't calibrated.

Michael Smith
91 164L White
175,000km original owner


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Del
Member since Dec-14-02
1405 posts		 Apr-17-07, 11:07 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Tranny help 91 164L"
In response to message #5
 
   True, but it doesn't hurt to have it read closer to what one might think are truer values. Eventually, when the gauge reads zero, as can happen with a faulty sender, it is time to do something.

Del

Seattle

89 Milano
91 164S
94 164LS
72 Morgan 27


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mjkhpns
Member since Oct-22-01
3851 posts		 Apr-18-07, 07:19 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: Tranny help 91 164L"
In response to message #4
 
   >Thanks for the info Del.
>Update to the kickdown cable, my uncle looked at it with me
>and said it is still attached and strong though the motion.
>Im not a mechanic so any help would be great, My dad is very
>good with vehicles but is laid up from a serious work injury
>at the momment. I am thinking of getting into the tranny to
>check the accumulator spring, i have printed out the post
>with the step by step instuctions, but since talking to
>erickson they said it wouldnt be that. any other ideas??
>should i order the spring to have?

So what did they suggest might be the problem?

Is the kick down cable hooked to throttle plate arm and does it have spring tension inside so tranny pulls cable back into tranny when throttle closed? You have to remove screw holding clamp that holds two black hoses on top of throttle body and push hose out of the way and remove plastic cover to see throttole cable and tranny kick down cable. Be sure cable hooked to throttle. Pull on inner tranny cable to be sure it is spring loaded. It is cable attached to throttle closest to center of car. Outer cable closer to coolant tank side is accelerator cable. See shop manual pg 16-43 for cable adjustment.

If this inner cable is spring loaded in tranny and hooked to throttle correctly Saab shop manual for same tranny says to adjust band "C".

See Alfa manual pg 16-37 for adjusting Brake band "C".

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
sdpatchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/tech/index.asp
http://www.aroc-usa.org/

Daily drivers: 91 Bianco 164B ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento 164B aka Quik Silver ALFA 4US
164L Rescue projects: 93 Rosso, 91 Argento, 91 Nero (now an organ donor); 91 Verde 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"


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Dennis
Member since Sep-27-04
160 posts		 Apr-18-07, 06:13 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Tranny help 91 164L"
In response to message #0
 
   I will assume that you have over 100,000 miles on your car (a 1991) and that you have the original transmission in the car. Yes, you "could" have a mechanical problem, but here is something that you could benefit from. Get yourself a bottle of Lucas transmission additive. It sells for about 8 dollars US. Add the Lucas after a fresh transmission flush and filter cleaning. Drive the car for about 10,000 or 15,000 miles and drain the system. You may be surprised to see the crud that comes out of your transmission. Varnish build-up takes the life out of all the "little" moving parts in there. Lucas will clean the gunk out. Summer driving (high heat) also helps with the Lucas cleaning process.

No, I don't work for Lucas!

I've done the Lucas treatment twice on two different higher mileage cars including a 164. I can honestly say that it has been the best 8 dollars that I've ever spent, period! Although, do keep in mind that if something is broken in the transmission, Lucas isn't going to fix it.


Dennis


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italianpride
Member since Apr-15-07
6 posts		 Apr-18-07, 07:29 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Tranny help 91 164L"
In response to message #8
 
   Hi today had dad in the garage with me he checked out the kickdown cable and it is ok. He also said he added the lucas in there when he changed the fluid after it started having the problems. i didnt drive it much after it all started, less than 200 miles, it has been parked since nov. 2006. when i talked to erickson they said need new trans or try the kickdown cable. they said wouldnt be the accumulator spring, but reading through many posts on here i also get the delay when shifting to drive or reverse from park. ive taken all the parts off to get at the top cover of tranny, does anyone know where i could order shop manuals, the 164, and which saab one to get?
ive got the instructions from steve's post to do the spring but not to adjust band C

thanks, Julian

91 164L
79 Alfetta
87 Eldo


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mjkhpns
Member since Oct-22-01
3851 posts		 Apr-18-07, 08:22 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Tranny help 91 164L"
In response to message #9
 
   See pg 16-37 for info on adjusting band: http://www.shorey.net/CarDisc/164/4/8/viewer0888.html

Here is whole manual, etc: http://www.shorey.net/CarDisc/164/0/0/page0000.html

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
sdpatchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/tech/index.asp
http://www.aroc-usa.org/

Daily drivers: 91 Bianco 164B ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento 164B aka Quik Silver ALFA 4US
164L Rescue projects: 93 Rosso, 91 Argento, 91 Nero (now an organ donor); 91 Verde 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"


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italianpride
Member since Apr-15-07
6 posts		 Apr-19-07, 09:11 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Tranny help 91 164L"
In response to message #10
 
   Hello, today i removed the valve body from the trans. inside the tranny looks really good, clean. the kickdown cable is functioning. on the valve body i removed the accumulator springs. Accum. A spring is not broken, i noticed there is a lip inside where the poppet would stop and when i pressed it in all the way it did not spring out at all. i am thinking it is a week one possibly. does anyone know the measurment of a good one, this one is approx. 58 mm. since i have it all apart would it be a good isea to replace the spring, and maybe the accum D one as well?
Am also going to do the Band C adjustment.
Any suggestions on anything else to do while it is apart, thanks for all the help everyone!

91 164L
79 Alfetta
87 Eldo


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mjkhpns
Member since Oct-22-01
3851 posts		 Apr-19-07, 10:30 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Tranny help 91 164L"
In response to message #11
 
   LAST EDITED ON Apr-19-07 AT 10:31 PM (EST)
 
I am away from my tech data and going out of town early in the morning so can't really answer you with much info until next week.

See Eriksson's page 3 info here: http://www.erikssonindustries.com/ZF_items/SAAB%20ZF/4hp18qsch3.htm

One of accumulators has two springs index 26.390 and 26.350for poppet(s) for passing gear.

Other spring index 26.420 on shifter poppet.

Hope you didn't remove a poppet and spring and put poppet back in without spring behind it.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
sdpatchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/tech/index.asp
http://www.aroc-usa.org/

Daily drivers: 91 Bianco 164B ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento 164B aka Quik Silver ALFA 4US
164L Rescue projects: 93 Rosso, 91 Argento, 91 Nero (now an organ donor); 91 Verde 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"


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italianpride
Member since Apr-15-07
6 posts		 Apr-20-07, 07:21 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: Tranny help 91 164L"
In response to message #12
 
   Hi Steve, thanks for the help. On the valve body all I did was remove the end cap, i took out 26.400, 26.396, and the spring 26.390. the spring was intact but when put on its end it leaned a bit, was off level. dont know if that means anything or not. Also removed 26.410 and spring 26.420 which looked good and straight.
Before i removed the parts, with the end cap off i pushed on the end of acumm. A and there was no resistance and couldnt feel the spring pushing back at all. on the accum D it has resistance and i can feel the spring push it back.
Also had a question about 26.340. i didnt take that end apart, it has spring tension, but i can pull it out about a 1/4 inch, and back in a 1/4 inch before it contacts the spring, is that anything to be concerned about?
thanks, Julian

91 164L
79 Alfetta
87 Eldo


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mjkhpns
Member since Oct-22-01
3851 posts		 Apr-22-07, 06:38 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: Tranny help 91 164L"
In response to message #13
 
   >Hi Steve, thanks for the help. On the valve body all I did
>was remove the end cap, i took out 26.400, 26.396, and the
>spring 26.390. the spring was intact but when put on its end
>it leaned a bit, was off level. dont know if that means
>anything or not. Also removed 26.410 and spring 26.420 which
>looked good and straight.
>Before i removed the parts, with the end cap off i pushed on
>the end of acumm. A and there was no resistance and couldnt
>feel the spring pushing back at all. on the accum D it has
>resistance and i can feel the spring push it back.
>Also had a question about 26.340. i didnt take that end
>apart, it has spring tension, but i can pull it out about a
>1/4 inch, and back in a 1/4 inch before it contacts the
>spring, is that anything to be concerned about?
>thanks, Julian

I would ask Nat Wentworth at Eriksson's the same question if I were you. I am not sure but I don't think there should be any free play in plunger 26.340 if that spring 26.350 is good if you have all the rest of the parts in that accumulator installed including other spring 26.390 and end cap 26.430.


Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor
sdpatchin@aroc-usa.org
http://www.aroc-usa.org/tech/index.asp
http://www.aroc-usa.org/

Daily drivers: 91 Bianco 164B ALFA 4ME, 91 Argento 164B aka Quik Silver ALFA 4US
164L Rescue projects: 93 Rosso, 91 Argento, 91 Nero (now an organ donor); 91 Verde 164L
"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"


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italianpride
Member since Apr-15-07
6 posts		 May-10-07, 00:07 AM (EST)
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15. "RE: Tranny help 91 164L Update"
In response to message #14
 
   Hello all thanks for the advice. last week i ordered both acum springs from erickson. in stalled them and refilled tranny plus bottle of lucas. The springs cured the delay from P-R and R-D,P-D, etc. How ever that is all it helped. It does clunk a little still while making those shifts. Also adjust kickdown cable, and Band C.

Symtoms are still the 2-3 shift in practically any throttle range. engine rpms race then have to let off gas and it will shift into third. the kickdown from 3-2 will do the same thing. kickdown from 2-1 is near perfect, shift from 1-2 at slow speed is smooth. reg or fast speed is a slight delay then engages. going into and out of 4th at cruising speed there is a clunk, also a hard kick down from 4-3 but no engine racing.

After test driving i drained fluid and got the governor out and inspected it. the seals are intact and what i could see of inside the tranny looks very clean. cleaned the governor race bearing etc. and reinstalled, fresh fluid in, it runs the same.

Am now thinking the band, or clutches or both. Am going to call erickson for their opinion tomorrow and price out some parts and kits. I would like to take it apart before i go ordering an overhaul kit to see what really need replacing, i know it could be so many things, but just to find out why only certain shifts are bad. When in gear the car is strong and no problems with tranny.

For anyone with the knolegde will a 164s 5 speed go into my L. I know its been done but also know it take lot work and parts. If anyone wants to take the time a list of what i would need to convert it would be greatly appreciated, i am definatly a manual tranny fan, so if i have to spend 500-$1500 rebuilding this auto box and doing all the work, i would much rather spend that money and time putting a 5 speed in.

Thank you for any help, Julian

91 164L
79 Alfetta
87 Eldo


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