From: BANESI@novell.com (Brad Anesi)
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 06:41:08 -0700
Subject: 164 Oil Leaks -Reply

On 13 May,  "Robert E. Woods"  
wrote...

>My 1991 164 with 25,000 miles has developed an engine oil leak which
>seems to emanate from the area where the engine block mates with the
>transaxle.  There is also some weepage from the timing belt tensioner,
>but as that is on the oppoiste side of the engine as this [more
>significant] leak, it would appear that the oil pan
>(sump) gasket needs replacing.  The dealer says the "cigarette" seals
>and the rear main seal seal need replacing as well, at a very high price.

The cigarette seals are the very likely culprit of the leak where the
transaxle meets the block.  This is a fairly common (and labor-intensive),
task and it can be put off for awhile if you don't mind a puddle of oil in
your garage or driveway.  However, if your timing belt tensioner is
leaking HAVE THIS TAKEN CARE OF IMMEDIATELY!   A slipped timing belt
will be an extremely costly venture.  Have the new mechanical tensioner
intalled and you won't have to worry about a leaking unit again.

The oil pan gasket should be replaced as part of the cigarette seal job.
The motor does not need to be removed.

Hope this helps,

Brad
'91 164B

From: "Ray Alcazar" 
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:05:59 +0000
Subject: Re: 164 Oil Fumes

>  Has anyone had a problem with oil fumes when they stop at a light or 
>  idle the car for a while? I have tried to track them down by looking 
>  inside the engine compartment but see nothing very unusual.

Sid,

My '91 164S suffers from an odor/slight smoking similar to what
you've described.

The culprit in my case? Melted soundproofing undercoat, a black 
rubbery substance sprayed underneath the vehicle. When heated by the 
exhaust pipe, it loses viscosity and occasionally drips onto the 
frontmost section of the pipe.

The fumes occur when the vehicle is in motion as well as
stopped/idling, but the airflow prevents the odor from entering the
cockpit or ventilation system (therefore becoming noticable to the
occupants).

From: Robert Hahn 
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:08:25 -0500
Subject: Re: 164 Oil Fumes

You are probably on the right track suspecting
the hose from the engine to the oil separator.  I
had oil fumes under the same conditions in my
'91 164S.  After replacing that hose, no more
fumes.  The hose is not easy to get, however. 
Each end is a different i.d.  I have it clamped
with hose clamps also, just to be sure.

From: "Joseph M. Saul" 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:39:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 164S Oil Consumption

Thought I'd share this with the Digest folks, and see if any of you have
noticed it too.  Might be worth including in the Big File Of 164 Notes.

My 164S (with about 34,000 miles on it) goes through oil.  I finally decided to
use the trip-meter to track how long it stays topped up after I add 2 liters of
Selenia -- the result was between 1300 and 1400 miles.  It's been even less
before.  The engine isn't filthy, and the car doesn't leave big black stains
when parked, so it's blowing the oil out the tailpipe.

I've discussed this with local Alfa guru Dean Russell, and apparently "they all
do that;" he's seen one other 164S where the previous owner actually went
through an engine rebuild to curb their car's oil habit to no avail.  I'm
currently using racing weight Selenia (10W60) in the hopes it won't get pissed
away quite as fast.  Seems to have slowed it somewhat.  (And the car has no
other symptoms.)

Incidentally, Dean also says that 164*S* owners should regard brake pads,
clutches, and motor mounts as consumable items.  I should know; I need to
replace a motor mount this week.

On a more fun note, I recently got to drive the car from Ann Arbor to Chicago
and back.  Whee!  Could have flown, but this was more fun and probably almost
as fast, considering airport travel times and annoyances.

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu
'93 164S

-----------------------

From: Jim_Hearnden@3com.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:57:35 +0000
Subject: 164S Oil Consumption

>My 164S (with about 34,000 miles on it) goes through oil.  I finally decided to
>use the trip-meter to track how long it stays topped up after I add 2 liters of
>Selenia -- the result was between 1300 and 1400 miles.  It's been even less
>before.  The engine isn't filthy, and the car doesn't leave big black stains
>when parked, so it's blowing the oil out the tailpipe.

I've had this problem with my 75 T. Spark. When I brought the car I completed
an oil change using a very good mineral oil (API/SAE SH test). The oil
consumption over the next 6000 miles was approx. 3 litres.
When the garage serviced it 4000 miles later it had used NO OIL at all.
On discussing it with them they said they used Shell Helix which is fully
Synthetic.

They also said that the reason they use it is too reduce the oil consumtion.
The garage that is currently servicing it uses a semi-synthetic (mineral based)
and the Oil consumption over the past 20k has been 3-4 litres every 12k.

Can someone explain why Synthetic which is as thin as water is used less
than the "thicker" mineral oils?
As the 164 my car has no oil leaks and doesn't seem to burn any fronm the
exhaust.

Very happy '92 75 T. Spark owner

-----------------------

From: "Robert E. Woods" 
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:07:37 -0500
Subject: 164 oil consumption

Joe Saul wrote about his 164S's oil consumption, which sounds fairly normal to me.

I've noticed in my 164 (not S) that oil consumption seems to vary greatly depending
on the type of oil used.  I switched to Castrol Syntec 5W50 last year, and now the
car consumes virtually no oil whatsoever.  A switch to this oil might be worth
considering.

Bob Woods
St. Paul, Minnesota
'91 164

----------------------------

From: Ferdinando Di Matteo 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 23:36:03 +0000
Subject: Re: alfa-digest V4 #504 

RE: 164S oil consumption.  I'm going to give you all some facts not
generally know about Alfas view about oil.

If some owners would read their Owners Manual they'd learn how to care
for their new cars. Most, I firmnly belive actually do.
The factory fills those cars with either Sint or Selenia semi synthetic,
and the same oil was provided gratis for the first 30K miles under the
free maintenance program of ARDONA, remember?  Don't complicate!  The
motor is happy on any kind of oil.  The 3.5 million mile 41 car test
fleet used every motor oil you can imagine.  The semi synthetics are
suggested in order to go the 10,000 mile interval, but it's a moot point
since the alfiati like to change sooner and waste money.  Why?  The
present fleet of all cars run on plain old bulk Shell 15W40.  The owners
manual is quite clear, can't the academia types read?  Or just too
lazy?  

My 164b has over 117K miles on it and the oil consumption is very low,
perhaps 2 quarts between oil changes using Mobil 1 15W50.  The engine
has not yet been opened and you all know I don't baby my cars. When I
bought the car I went by the book 3 10K mile free oil changes and the
engine used practically no oil after the first 10K.  The oil I use now
is a small drip which is not worth fixing before a major overhaul some
time down the line.  

From: "Joseph M. Saul" 
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:20:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: 164 Dipsticks

>    Question: How many litres between MAX and MIN on dipstick on a 164 ?

Two.  (At least on mine.)

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu
'93 164S

From: "Hanley, David A" 
Subject: Oil Consumption
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:31:03 +0100

With the recent comments expressed by others about oil consumption in
Alfa's, the following may be of interest...


(1)	One of the TSBs for the 164 (US 3L V6 models) issued by ARDONA,
states that usage upto 1 quart per 750 miles is acceptable. Greater than
this is a cause for concern. 

	This seems a lot to me!

(2)	Fiat Lubricante GB, now have a new Oil HPX (10W60) for engines that
consume oil, particularly high mileage cars, or ones that burn oil.
	Normal Oil for a 164 is Selenia Alfa Romeo (10W40).

	Question, what difference would this make ?
	I've been told its thicker, but I thought that was the 10W part -
viscosity.

Regards
David.
'94 164 TS

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:51:01 -0400
From: Fred Di Matteo 
Subject: Re: alfa-digest V6 #176RE: 60W oil

I don't think it takes a mental giant to realize that the use of a
heavier grade oil than the one specified by the manufacturer, in the
case of the 164 it's 10W40.  If one thinks he needs 60w oil, then he
needs much more than heavy oil.  He's treating the symptom and not the
cause.  The trend today is to use as low a viscosity as possible.  
Heavier grades create huge amounts of friction, several hp losses, and
disturb the oil film wedge at the bearing to journal interface.    Low
oil pressure is not solved by high viscosity motor oils and may even
aggravate the oil temperature.    The modern V-6 engines do not require
very high pressures.  If you have a concern about the pressures, it
should be verified.  Is sender ok? Panel gauge ok?  The fact remains
that there have been no failures of any kind whatever related to
insufficient oil pressure and no evidence of warranty claims.  
If you remember my writing about my 164 out to the Phoenix convention
where the ambient temperature reached 111 F. and the gauge was showing
zero at idle and perhaps 15 or 20 psi cruising, I was not worried even
running the engine up to the rev limit from traffic lights and at
elevated speeds on the highways.  It had over 115K miles on the
odometer, now almost 145K  and still running strong.   Use 10W30 or 40
for best economy and best lubrication Winter and Summer.  Fred Di Matteo

From: "KARL MAXON" 
Subject: Alfa 164 Cam Pulley Hub Removal
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:44:35 -0800

Some time back, I was looking for a puller to be able to remove the cam
pulley hub on the V6 engine.  This was to replace the small o-rings behind
the hub which were leaking quite a bit (also useful in case the intake
valve clearances need adjusting).

The front was a breeze with a normal harmonic balance puller.  I bought an
inexpensive Lisle brand model 45500 puller (from generic discount tool
outlet) and used 50 mm bolts for the front cam pulley because the puller is
(was-more later) 1 inch thick.  I bought a short (1 inch long) bolt to
replace the very long center bolt that came with the puller  (5/8" dia
18tpi grade 8).

For those familiar with the 164, the rear cam pulley has very little room
to work with between the pulley nut and the right firewall (approx. 2 1/2
inches).  So, in order to get in the tight space, I ultimately made a
puller to fit:  I took the Lisle puller noted above to a machine shop, and
for a small fee they milled the thickness to exactly 1/2 inch total
thickness - flat on both sides (it comes rounded on one side).  The center
bolt was ground down by the shop also so that the total thread length
matched the thickness of the puller (and so total bolt length was approx. 1
inch long).  I then used 40 mm bolts (7mm dia like stock - 8.8 grade) to
allow the pulley to be "spaced out" after fitting it in the tight space.

The end of the cam fits right inside the center bolt hole so the puller
bolts cam be put in easily, starting with the bolt farthest from the front
of the car (without the center bolt in place, otherwise your fingers can't
get to the back bolt).  You have to leave a space between the puller and
the hub of approx. 1/4 inch, so that there are enough threads for the
center bolt to start with.  I then inserted the center bolt (takes nimble
fingers), then the final two puller bolts can be put in.  Use a large
wrench to start pulling, while using a suitable tool to hold the pulley
from turning by accident.  The reason the puller needs to be spaced/gap'd
out a bit is that if the puller is tight up against the hub, only a few
threads are available to start the center bolt, which is not enough given
that the puller appears to be a cast iron variety.

With careful patience, the hub popped loose, and removal of the puller
bolts and then the hub was as easy as could be.  In order to have room to
work with, I moved the dog bone (undid front bolt after loosening the bone
and swung it out of way), the back pulley timing belt cover (went in and
out easily because of the tabs on the bottom of the cover), and rubber fuel
line.  I moved the few electric lines out of the way also.  I also had the
right inner fender removed, and used a large 1 5/8" socket to turn the
engine to top dead center, and marked pulleys and hubs for reference just
in case.  Everything else stayed in place!

Note that I had responses to inquiries regarding the pulley hub removal
ranging from "undo the motor mounts, jack up the engine and use a regular
or factory puller"(response from Alfa dealers), to "we don't do that until
the heads or engine is out of the car"(various shops and Alfa dealers), and
"you need to drop the sub-frame with engine"(1 shop and an Alfa dealer).

My 164L is a 1991 with 106,000 miles on it.  I understand that later single
cam V6's have a one piece pulley to rectify the leaking o-ring, but I
haven't confirmed this.  The o-ring is a tiny round rubber-band sized piece
that costs approx. 50 cents.  That's all that keeps the oil from leaking
from inside the pulley, as the outside as the normal large oil seal in the
cylinder head.

I tried locating a factory puller but they are no longer available, and
from the descriptions I could get, it doesn't fit the tight space of the
rear area, hence the jacking up of the engine for routine valve adjustments
I suppose.  I used the factory pulley tool to hold the pulley from turning
while removing the cam pulley large nut (Alfa part number 18200 51000 00
00), and a Proto brand "torque adapter" 7/8" size, with 3/8" drive - its 2
inches long (part number 5128, I got from a Proto dealer) - to torque the
cam pulley large nut back down with a torque wrench (I used a regular 22mm
wrench to remove the nut - 7/8" is just over 22mm).  The factory manual
procedure is to torque down the center nut, then tighten the pulley small
bolts.  I did the entire procedure with the timing belt in place.

Puller: $19.95 ;  Machining: $20.00 ;  Torque Adapter:  $11.95 ; Misc.
bolts $5

Minimum cost estimate amongst my inquires:  $200

From: "Robert E. Woods" 
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 09:34:09 -0600
Subject: 164 noise

In response to Eug's post on the Alfa Digest, the noise you hear from
your 164's engine compartment could well be the a/c idler pulley, part
number 00605-13907-00-00.  As I recall, they cost about $60.

The a/c idler pulley is located on the lower right side of the engine.  It
places tension on the a/c drive belt, but is in somewhat of an exposed
location and seems to fail regularly, probably due to grit getting into the
bearing.  On my '91 164 with 24,000 miles, the a/c idler pulley has been
replaced three times.  You can probably see the idler pulley if you look in
through the front right wheel well, but just looking at it won't tell you
anything.  I think the pulley can be replaced without removing any `v'
belts, but I don't recall exactly.

Who have you been taking the car to for repair?  My brother and I both
own 164s.  Last summer we took the engines and transmissions out of
each and did a bit of preventative maintenance, so I am quite familiar with
the 164.  I have been very impressed with Rick at Morrie's; have you
taken the car there?

If you live in the Twin Cities area, feel free to call me if you'd like.  Work is
334-8484, and home is 484-0931.

--------------------

From: "Oh No! Mr. Bill!!" 
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 10:37:39 -0800
Subject: noise in 164

Eug,
	Two questions:
1) Did you go in for your free belt change from ARDONA?
2) When mine was in they told me I needed the idler pulley that keeps
the drive belt tight. The bearing goes bad. It is either this...$53 or
the same bearing type pulley on your tensioner which is important to
change to the new non oil type. That should fix it.

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:18:57 -0800
From: Brad Anesi 
Subject: Re: Coolant relief?  -Reply

Hi Dave-

> Idler pulley bearing "exploded" ( mechanic's term... ), stopped the 
>water pump... overheated coolant... boiled out through the overflow
>valve  apparently ( thank god... ).
So let's see  ... this would be the idler pulley on the water pump that I
suggested should have been replaced when they did the timing
belt/de-tensioner replacement?  (Jeez, give the guy I break, he says to
himself)  

------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:58:18 -0600 (CST)
From: Dave Hillman 
Subject: Re: Coolant relief? -Reply -Reply -Reply -Reply (fwd)

FWIW, from the Jan '96 Velocissima  "...We (ARDONA) have not seen
problems related to the water pump (the seal and bearings were
redesigned for the 164).  The weak link seems to be the tensioner
bearing itself, although it has been reliable.  The cost to replace it is very
small, should it fail."

------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 16:07:33 -0700 (MST)
To: d-hillman@uchicago.edu

 I have a 91 164L just past 80k, I've had a few problems with the cooling
system, I had the idler pulley bearing disintegrate oh four months ago or
so but most of my problems were with the cooling fan wiring  there is a
resistor up under the fan cowling that is in the circuit to provide low
speed fan if it fails then you only have cooling when the high speed
circuit kicks in which could be the temp you reach before it cools off
there is also a fuse on the firewall that can fatique and cause
intermitant problems Anyway I suggest you check and see if the fan is
running under normal conditions and if its high speed as the engine cools
after the overheating. 

I have a very early model built in early 90, I've had a transmission 
input shaft bearing fail and the spider gears in the diff fail both 
replacement parts were beefier, I think the later years got the improvements.

From: bofusric@webtv.net (ric salinas)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 00:01:28 -0500
Subject: 164 Water Pump [and timing belt tensioner]

I had what I thought was a water pump noise. It was actually the
idler/tensioner bearing going bad. My dealer, who is an
Alfa/Fiat/Ferrari rep, uses a Fiat bearing in its place. The original
has only one bearing race where the Fiat replacement has two races-which
insures longer life and more quite operation. Another bonus was that it
was half the price of the original.
FYI Fiat part# 4443446 @ $39.91.
My 164 has 108,000 miles on original water pump.

Date:    Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:11:52 -0800 (PST)
From:    danny pham <robustful@yahoo.com>
Subject: 164 pulley

Dave, 

It seems that this is a very common occurence w/164's. Same thing
happened to me aside from the extreme temp. You won't have to replace
the whole arm, just the pulley. Pulley goes for around $65-$85. I
usually replace it whenever I change the belt. I've overheated my car
this past summer probably 6 times. It seems to run fine now after I've
replace the radiator, temp. gauge, thermostat, and radiator fan. Now
my car runs fine. Hope this helps!

Danny
91' 164L
dallas tx
114,000 miles

Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:47:56 ESTFrom: Westphal50@aol.com Subject:
164 S idler pully fell off - overheatedDuring the last mile of my
drive home yesterday, the BATT and ABS lightcameon - "do I go for it",
I asked ? I went for it. But it wasn't abroken belt- - it was the
idler pulley - it just fell off of the arm. Since Ihaven'topened it up
yet, I can't see what should have been keeping it on - somecollar and
a bolt I guess.Question #1 - Has this ever happened to anyone and do I
order the wholearmand pulley assembly ? or a bolt and collar and Lock
Tite ?As I pulled up the driveway the temperature needle was pretty
high - Ifigureit was high enough to have smoked the head gaskets on my
old GTV 6. Ihoseddown the sump as soon as I could - and once I got the
hood open, I gottheheads as well. A minute after having stopped and
hosed, thetemperature wasreading midway.Question # 2 - What might this
brief overheating have done to my 164and mightit not be evident right
away ? Thanks for any advise - I'll be driving the Verde this
week.Dave Westphal

From: Gerry Lehmann <71613.3501@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 21:26:54 -0500
Subject: Valve clearance check

 Brad Anesi asked the following regarding checking valve clearances on the
3 liter (two valve) V6;

>Questions...
>1) Any consumables needed other than 2 valve cover gaskets and 6
>spark plug hole seals?
>2) What's the popular wisdom on re-torquing the head studs while
>you've got the access?
>3) To rotate the cams do I need to rotate the engine (if so, what's
>easiest?), or can I rotate the cams only via the cam nut?
>4) Are there any special tools needed to do this job?  (I have a full
>assortment of wrenches and a feeler gauge)
>5) Any other tips/hints are appreciated?

from my experience with the 3.0 liter in RWD application, I'ld offer the
following;
1) Only if you have a need and get brave enough to do the intakes (which
are actually easier than you think, you've done the hard part in getting in
there) in which case its good to replace the cam oil seals (~$1) rather
than reuse.  I like to change the oil and filter afterwards just in case
any crud fell in anywhere along the way.
2) I recommend putting the torque wrench on while you're in there, going
through the pattern and snugging up any that are low.  I (and several west
coast ALFA engine builders I have asked this question of) don't feel its a
good idea to loosen the bolts first on a routine check.  The wisdom is not
to break apart gasket seals that were doing fine before you got there, just
to tighten loose ones.  The best minds I have queried also feel that the
torque hot is more important than that cold, so how fast can you take those
valve covers off?
3) The easiest way is a 1 5/8 12 pt socket on the crankshaft although I'm
assuming you have access to it in a 164, probably through the wheel well
access panel. I can't imagine turning the engine over by the cam bolt, in
fact even the factory "cam turning tool" uses the 3 cam hub bolts rather
than the cam bolt itself.  I'm sure you could put it in 5th and push it as
well but that might get old after a while.
4)That should be sufficient tool wise, although if like myself you're
really anal about such things, the kitchen baster is a handy way to remove
what will be surprisingly dirty oil you'll find in the head well sumps.
5) - Do your timing belt adjustment first.
- turn the engine only in the normal direction of rotation, never
backwards.  If you go too far, go around again....you wanted to double
check a few others anyway.
- The exhaust clearances can be measured either at the cam or the valve.
(the hood sticker gives measurements for both on a GTV6).  At the valve is
easier, but many (including the factory manual) believe that at the cam is
more accurate.
- If you want the cam covers to not leak, use the proper low range torque
wrench (in inch pounds) and torque them properly while using the late model
factory gaskets. These are constructed of a slightly raised rubber bead on
a polymer base as opposed to a plain old one layer cardboard or fiber type.

Gerry Lehmann
San Diego

-------------------

From: Chris_Weyn@radian.com (Chris Weyn)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 10:48:53 -0600
Subject: Re: valve adjustment on 164

     Brad,

     you are probably going to receive a few replies on this one... ITS THE
     OTHER WAY AROUND...The exhaust valves can be easily adjusted while the
     intake valves require shims and removal of the cams...

     If you have a manual transmission, you can easily turn the engine by
     SLOWLY turning one of your front wheels with the shifter in fifth.

     As far as tools go, you need to have set of angled feeler gauges in
     order to check the intake valve clearances. Straight gauges will give
     you a wrong reading.

     Good luck,

     Chris Weyn, Austin TX

     84 GTV6

From: Tony Wood 
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:25:20
Subject: Re: ticking noise

Eric asked on Tue, 12 Aug 1997 
>Subject: Price on valve adjustment
>
>I own a black '92 164S that is making a ticking noise when it warms up.  My
>friend said it needs the valves to be adjusted.  I wanted to know if anyone
>else had this problem, and if so how much did it cost to correct the problem.
>

Mine's green metallic but it too makes a ticking noise  ;-)

Valve clearances were within spec last time I looked, car's always
ticked and it has got no worse over the past four years. 

I sometimes wonder what it is.  

From: "Robert E. Woods" 
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:46:00 -0600
Subject: 164 coolant drain plugs

Karl Chen inquired about installation of an IAP sacrificial anode on his
164S.

There are two coolant drain plug on the 164's V6 engine,  one located
under each exhaust manifold. Unless the engine is out of the car it is
difficult (but certainly not impossible) to gain access to the rear drain
plug.  

On my car I removed the coolant drain plug on the front side of the
engine and replaced it with a sacrificial anode purchased from IAP.  Be
sure to keep the copper washer, as one is not supplied with the
sacrificial anode.

When you remove the coolant drain plug, you will lose a lot of coolant, so
be sure to have a receptacle handy to catch the old coolant.  In my car, a
low mileage 164 (23,000 miles), there was a lot of crud caught behind
the drain plug, so I recommend flushing the system thoroughly in order to
clean it out.  It took two separate flushings to get  the cooling system in
my car clean.

Bob Woods
'91 164
St. Paul, Minnesota

From: Thomas Woods 
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:25:28 -0600
Subject: Sticking Throttles on 164s in Cold Weather or Due to Throttle Mechanism Housing

Several months ago, someone posted on this digest two reports compiled by
the U.S. Government that described accidents involving 164s that occurred
as a result of sticky throttles or racing engines.  Having had some trouble
this summer and this winter with a sticky throttle on my 164, those reports
really grabbed my attention. 

I have waited to post my conclusions concerning this topic until my 164 had
been subjected to enough time under very cold weather driving conditions to
render my findings at least somewhat reliable.  So far, it has been a
bitterly cold winter in Minnesota, where temperatures have often dipped
below -20 degrees F at night, and where my 164 has now been subjected to
true arctic conditions for the past two months.  (Those outside North
America may be interested to know that at -40 F the Fahrenheit and
Centigrade temperature scales converge.)

My results follow.  Last summer, my brother Bob convinced me that I should
remove the engine from my 164 to change the timing belt and mechanical
tensioner.  Naturally, my wife did not mind having her brother- in-law in
her home at all hours throughout the summer and fall directing the project,
nor did she mind having her husband down in the basement working on the 164
engine every night between June 1 and October 1.  She especially liked
subsidizing his beer and ice cream sandwich habit. The project greatly
enhanced marital harmony.

It turns out that once you've spent man-years removing an engine and
transmission from a 164, it really is much easier to remove and replace 
the hydraulic tensioner with a mechanical tensioner than if you had merely
left the engine in the car to begin with.  The timing belt may also be
replaced quite handily when the engine, resplendent in all its aluminum
glory, is sitting on the garage floor.  Then all you have to do is put the
engine back in the car and hook everything back up.  It's a snap.  But, I
digress.

After re-installing the engine and transmission, and during the first
post-installation drive of my 164, I was driving about 30 mph when the
engine suddenly began to accelerate out of control.  I literally had to
stand on the brakes to get the RPMS below red line, turn off the car and
coast to a stop.  An inspection under the hood revealed that the throttle
mechanism had somehow become snagged on the black plastic housing that
slides down on top of the throttle mechanism.  I could find no obvious or
visible cause for the problem, as the housing appeared to have been
installed properly and did appear to properly engage the two guides
provided on the throttle mechanism.  Removing the housing cured the
problem.  I've since tried to put the housing back on several ways and
always the same result obtains.  Thus, I now leave the housing off.

Later in the year, and the first morning after the 164 sat outside
overnight in sub-zero (Fahrenheit) weather, I drove to work.  About one
mile into the commute the engine began, once again without warning, to
race.  The car began to pick up speed very quickly.  I could not slow the
car down by pulling the accelerator pedal towards me with the top of my
foot.  Once again I had to stand on the brakes to keep the RPMS below the
red line range, find a suitable place to pull over, turn the car off, and
coast to a stop.  An inspection under the hood once again revealed a stuck
throttle mechanism, even though the upper plastic housing had been removed.
 I thought the problem was a sticky accelerator cable and thus lubricated
the cable and mechanism.  

The problem kept recurring, however, but only when the temperature outside
was below about -10 F (and once after I washed the engine when it was
similarly cold). 

After a few hits and misses I discovered the culprit was a tiny amount of
water that had gotten between the exterior sheathing of the accelerator
cable and the cable itself.  Because my car was parked at night in a
somewhat warm garage, the engine would not race until I had driven far
enough in very cold temperatures to freeze the water present between the
cable and the sheathing.  I tried working WD-40 down between the cable and
sheath to displace the water by removing the small rubber boot that caps
the top of the accelerator cable in the throttle mechanism, spraying WD-40
into the small  upwardly facing well formed in the ferrule over which the
boot fits, and working the cable back and forth.  I later discovered that
Liquid Wrench appeared to do a better job displacing the water.  I've since
had no recurrences of the engine racing problem, even when the temperature
has fallen to about -30 F.

The moral of the story is:  (a) do not leave disconnected 164 accelerator
cable ends flailing in summer thunderstorm winds after you remove the  hood
and engine;  (b) use extreme caution when refitting the upper plastic
housing on a 164's throttle mechanism;  (c) do not wash 164 engines in very
cold weather, or otherwise cause water to enter the space between the
accelerator cable and its protective sheath;  and (d) do not permit your
older brother to talk you into removing an engine from a 164.

-----------------------

From: Tony Wood 
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:49:10
Subject: Re: 164 throttle cables

Thomas Woods   wrote about "Sticking
Throttles on 164s in Cold Weather or Due to Throttle Mechanism Housing"

To digress slightly, I recall changing the throttle cable on my 164
when the inner began to fray, fearing that it might stick with
similar alarming results to Thomas's.

What a pain that job is!  I expected a fifteen-minute job, but it
ended up taking me a couple of hours!  The pedal end has to go through
double bulkheads behind the engine.  You just can't see what you are
doing, even with dentist mirrors, and getting a hand anywhere near
the job is impossible.  Is it easier on the LHD version, I wonder? 

I ended up holding one bolt in the cable-lug in the end of a flexible
socket, holding cable and socket extension as one,  and doing the
whole thing by guesswork.  You have to clear away some of the
sound-deadening felt first, of course.

Tony Wood
164 3.0 V6 Lusso '89 (RHD) 

From: bjanesi@juno.com (Bradley J. Anesi)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:20:58 EDT
Subject: 164 Motor Mount Replacement 

Mark Jones  writes...

>I plan to replace all of the motor mounts on my '91 164S.  Has anyone
>tried this?  How difficult is it?  Do you have any tips or pointers?
>What equipment do I need?

Mark, except for the rear one, this is a relatively easy job.  Best bet
is to block up the front of the car a bit; then remove wheels and forward
splash shields for best access. First, loosen the dog-bone mount (I still
have an extra new one if you plan on replacing this).  Next, raise the
motor with a jack with a wide wooden block (to spread the weight) under
the oil sump. You'll find the transmission mount will require much less
lift than the passenger side mount.  Swap in the new ones and bolt
everything back up.  BTW, the rear one can be done, but it's probably
okay  ...and it is much more difficult to un-bolt and r&r.  

From: Dave Hillman 
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:24:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: re: 164 juddering

   To the fellow whose 164 judders on take-off, sounds like a motor mount.
As mentioned recently, these are essentially consumable.  I just had
similar juddering on my 164 after Lindsey cracked the front motor mount
whilst autocrossing it.  

From: AL SHAWAF 
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:11:58 -0400
Subject: 164 stuff

Hi all,
I want to share my experiences regarding many of the matters aired in the=

- 164 engine mounts - =

Before I replaced the engine mounts on my car (1989 164 3.0), the front end
felt as if it was going to pieces. I had strange noises while turning at
parking speeds, a cracking sound at full lock, and over bumps, the car felt
like it was going to fall apart! Now, it is as solid as a rock. Engine
mounts replaced at Alfa Aid (0175 3622336) and cost 275 pounds including
labour and tax.


89 164 3.0

From: karlcchen@juno.com (KARL C CHEN)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 10:37:06 -0800
Subject: RE: 164 Dog-Bone Adjustment

 "Kenneth Hilll"  writes...

>I am about ready to install the heads on my '91 164S.  I do not recall 
>seeing anything in the manual on the proper adjustment for the upper
>engine link rod.  How critical in this?  Can anyone tell me the proper 
>adjustment procedure?

This my experience when I replaced my broken torque rod( aka. dog bone )
bushing:

How to remove it: 
The dog bone has two opposite threads on it, one is right-handed the 
other left-handed.  Take a good look at thread, the right handed
screw slanted to right( the normal one ). The left-handed thread
slanted to left.  If you are not sure, use a right-handed thread screw
to compare them you will see what I mean slanted to right or left.  
Release these two nuts on dog bone ( the length adjustment bolt )
one at time by using two open-ended wrenches.  One wrench on center
of dog bone to keep it from turning, the other wrench at nut to loosen
it.  Watch out when loosening the left-handed nut, you turn the opposite
direction of right-handed nut to loosen it.  

Now, loosen the ( vertical ) screw that secure dog bone to body first.
Don't remove it yet. Then loosen the horizontal bolt that secure the dog
bone to engine block.  Now you should be able to remove both screws if 
dog bone is not in too great tension.  If both screws seem to be quite 
tight, use the open-ended wrench to adjust length of dog bone by turn 
center of dog done. You have to get two nuts on dog bone out of the 
way( toward center ) to adjust it.  After you release tension it should 
be easy to remove both screws that secure dog bone to engine and body.
Now adjust the dog bone to shorten it so you can remove it from the 
tight space.

How to put it back:
opposite of above procedure, the dog bone should be shorten to make 
it easy to get into tight space.  Then lengthen it...

Dog bone adjustment:
I need to put a little bit tension( or compression ) there. By no tension
I mean after I put it back and before tighten the vertical screw on car
body, I can insert and remove the screw with no resistance.  Now, at no 
tension position, I tighten both screws that secure the dog bone to 
body and engine block.  Now adjust the length of dog bone by using open
ended wrench turning at center of dog bone.  You can either shorten it
( under tension ) or extended it( under compression ).  I think about two
turns of dog bone should be enough, remember because the two threads one 
dog bone are opposite, each one turn change length by two pitches of
thread.  

After adjustment is done. use one open-ended wrench prevent dog done 
from turning, tighten two nuts on dog bone one at a time by use another
open-ended wrench.

What happen if the dog bone is under no tension or compression ?
In my case, when at lower speed in 1th gear, if you suddenly release 
the gas pedal, the car behaves like a bucking bronco. With minimum 
tension already in dog bone and all engine mounts under engine block 
are in good shape, this should not happen.  

Karl 92 168S

From: Peter.Greis@saab.se
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:27:59 +0100
Subject: Re: 164 motor mount

Bill Leclair wrote

> I recently replaced my exhaust downpipe on my 1991 164L, all went well
> with the new downpipe from Difatta brothers. However I was told to
> inspect the motor mounts because too much flexing of the motor will
> cause the flex joint in the downpipe to fail.
> Sure enough it looks like the rear motor mount has a 1/4 inch of
> space (play) in it. Is this a job for a professional, or is this
> something that can be done in a day or less at home? It looks like the
> passenger side half shaft goes through the motor mount. If anyone has
> attempted this please drop me an Email or post to the list.

Bill, you might not have a problem with your motor mounts.

Also I thought I saw signs of bad motor mounts: broken flex joint in the down
pipe, stumbling motor, moving shift stick and big space in the rear motor
mount. I couldn't see anything wrong with the bushings in the upper torque rod,
witch I believe is the more important one, and my mechanic assured me that 6mm
play is normal in the rear mount.

Can anyone give Bill and me example of how you determine when the mounts has
gone bad or is it really obvious when they has?

Date:    Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:36:39
From:    PETER GREIS 
Subject: Re: motor mount 164

Bill Harkell wrote:

> Anyone know how to determine the condition of the motor mounts on 164? 
> I am especially suspicious of the rear mount on the pass. side which
> mounts to the subframe behind axle, Others look "normal".

I have now learned that the symptoms of bad motor mounts is broken flex joint in
the downpipe, stumbling motor, moving shift stick and shuddering from the front
when accelerating. It is usually the left front motor mount and/or the upper
torque rod that is broken. I was recommended to change both front and rear left
mounts at the same time.

To inspect the motor mounts I recommend to put a jack under the oil sump, spread
the load with a log, and lift the motor (not the car). Look for fatigue cracks
or for the rubber part to rise out of the mount. Remove the left forward splash
shields to have a closer look. The upper torque rod can easily be removed for
inspection. 

Date:    Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:39:54 +0000
From:    Peter.Greis@saab.se
Subject: 164 Motor Mount Replacement

Others have written that it is more difficult to replace the rear motor mount
than them in the front. That is true but I haven't seen anyone explain what it
takes. So here is what I needed to do to replace the rear motor mount on a
5-speed V6:

The best access to the rear mount is through the left front wheel well but you
don't have to remove the rear splash shields to reach the screws.
Before you raise the engine, from under the oil sump, the gear shift linkage
has to be loosened from the gearbox. The screws can be reached with one hand
from above and one from below so this is easier done with a friend if you don't
want to remove more than absolutely necessary. The joint between the rear
manifold and flexpipe also has to bee loosened together with the upper torque
rod but that's all.

You have to raise the engine pretty high to get the mount out so it could be a
good idea to let the engine rotate forward by holding it down at the front.
Resist the temptation of letting the front mounts take the loads from this
because they will probably not stand it. Look around the engine compartment for
clearance as you raise the motor, specially around the generator.
Clean the area from dirt, swap in the new mount and bolt everything back up.

I had the front a-arms out when I did this but I don't think that is necessary.
Perhaps the front suspension shouldn't be fully extended though when you raise
the motor. (I'm thinking of the drive shafts).

It took me a couple of hours to do this and only standard tools were needed. No
sweat but more work than for the front mounts.

/Peter Greis
CAR Sweden
164 3.0 V6 -90

Date:    Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:34:22 +0000
From:    Peter.Greis@saab.se
Subject: 164: Bushings and mounts

Ciao,
Glad someone was interested and I'll send this to the AD as well.
You wrote about the Superflex bushing:

> I also like the bushings and turn in is better, for sure. Ha! Now the
> rear feels a bit sloppy in comparison...

Yes I felt the same and had a look at the rear control arms front bushings (or
what ever it's called). When I removed the anti sway bar I could push the arm
in and out and the bushing seemed really busted. I have found specially made
plastic bushings for this and planning on installing them before the next track
event in the beginning of October.

They look really nice, white polyurethane with an inner and outer metallic
sleeve, but cost a lot more than the Superflex bushings. Probably won't save me
any money but will last forever.

And regarding the motor mounts:

> Why did you change the rear mount and how did you determine the mount
> needed to be change?

That is a question I have asked a couple of times my self and still have no good
answer to. Putting a jack under the oil sump and slightly raise the motor works
to determine the condition of the front mounts but probably not for the rear
one.

I suppose you should look for too much space (play) in it (if it's hanging down
to much). At least the left front mount is filled with some oil or fluid that
can trickle out and the others might have the same design.
My right front mount was busted, the rubber part came loos from the mount, and
I was recommended to change the rear at the same time. My mechanic told me that
if it's bad the front mount will soon break again.
When I got it out I couldn't se anything wrong with it and it is probably still
o.k. I swapped to the new mount anyway and the play is now slightly less.

Good luck with your 164.

/Peter Greis
164 V6 -90
CAR Sweden

From: Peter Krause 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:08:53 -0800
Subject: Re: alfa-digest V5 #339 puffs of smoke...

Most likely, the puffs of blue smoke upon enthusiastic downshifts are
the result of deteriorated valve guide seals. We've had several '91
164's in with between 65k and 110k that exhibited high oil consumption
and puffs only to pull the heads off and discover valve to guide
clearance to be within nominal values, but the seals brittle and non
functional. I'm sure that the more enterprising list members could
figure out a way to try and replace seals on the heads in the car, but
we've got to make a living somehow...

From: McNeon 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 09:28:07 EDT
Subject: RE: 164 Oil Pan Removal

In a-d 6-174, Bill LeClair wrote:

"Can the oil pan be removed with the engine in the car, the car in question
is a 1991 164L 3.0US. I need to change the oil pump.
	I looked underneath, it looks pretty good accept for a piece of the sub
frame may be in the way, by the front of the motor."

The answer is yes, with reservations. You can remove the oil pan with the
engine in the car, but it's not easy. 

With the car supported on jackstands, remove the right front wheel and inner
fender, loosen the radiator from its support, remove the alternator and upper
engine mount (dogbone), and take out the right side (engine front) motor mount
bolts. It would also help a lot to remove the right driveshaft, including the
intermediate bearing and support.

Support the engine with a floor jack and block of soft wood under the front
crank pulley and start lifting slowly. You'll have to rock the engine forward
as it rises to get the rear cam pulley clear of the sheetmetal. Keep watching
to see if anything (hoses, wires) is getting stretched too much. Remove the
bolts holding the right side of the subframe to the car and loosen those
holding the left side on; you'll need to let the subframe swing down for
additional clearance.

At this point, you should be able to reach all of the pan bolts. Remove them
(did you drain the oil?) and the pan will lower. Using an Allen wrench, reach
inside the pan and remove the bolts holding the oil pump pickup. Now, the pan
should drop free. 

Installation is the reverse of removal. While you're in there, you should
replace the cigarette seals. Thread a drywall screw into the old ones and pull
them out, then use the same screw to push in the new ones.

I know this technique works, because I've done it. But, it's very tedious; I
recommend it only if you're an accomplished mechanic and have a lot of
patience. Having an extra pair of hands is also a great help. 

Good luck,
Bob McKeown
McNeon@aol.com

Date:    Fri, 28 Aug 1998 17:48:35 -0400
From:    Bruce Murray 
Subject: Re:Gasket sealant, need everyone opinion.

>
>I was told to used Permatex Ultra Gray on 164 thermostat housing=20
>and CAM cover as gasket sealant.  It is a very good stuff,=20
>stay pliable and never hardened.  Funny it is a little bit=20
>hard to find Ultra Gray while there are Ultra Blue, Ultra Black...
>on every auto store.  I finally found one.
>
>As for 164 intake duct gasket glue, Ultra gray is not sticky enough.
>I use Permatex high tack gasket sealant.  It's hard to apply but=20
>easy to clean with alcohol.=20
>

Well since Karl asks for everyone's opinion here's mine:-

YOU SHOULD ABSOLUTELY NOT USE SILICON GASKET SEALER IN AN ENGINE WHERE IT
IS IN CONTACT WITH THE OIL SYSTEM.
The little pieces that are sqeezed out of the joint will set up and may
fall off inside the engine. They can then fall into the oil system and may
cause blockages.

ALFA, I seem to remember, issued a service bulletin which said that the
engine warranty would be voided if silicon sealant were used.

The car manufacturers may provide gaskets which have a silicone applied in
a carefully controlled quantity so that none can get into the engine.

Silicon Gasket Sealer is OK for the water passages I suppose but even there
small bits could clog the radiator tubes.

IMHO, the best material to use is

PERMATEX HYLOMAR HPF Hi-Temp Gasket Dressing

Permatex=AE HYLOMAR=AE HPF Gasket Dressing and Flange Sealant
An exceptional high tack gel sealant that is non-hardening, allowing for
easy disassembly of flanged components even after long-term operation. No-run
formula is compatible with flanged surfaces and mechanical gasketing
materials. Temperature range -60F to 600F, resists fuels, lubricants, water,
water/glycol and related engine fluids. Contains no ODC/VOC solvents.


It was originally developed by Rolls Royce over 30 years ago and is
licensed to Permatex.

It is costly (and may not be easy to get) but look at the cost of what you
are protecting!

Well that should set the cat among the pigeons!

Have a nice weekend and don't forget to watch the Spa Formula One Belgium
Grand Prix this weekend (if you get Speedvision)

Cheers

Bruce

Date:    Wed, 16 Sep 98 12:39:26 -0400
From:    "Colin Verrilli" <verrilli@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: 164 Rear Main Seal & Cigarette Seal

Robertone  writes:
> Hello Alfistis,
>
> I have some basic questions. On a V6 164L can you replace the rear main seal
> without affecting the cigarette seal? I assume the cigarette seal is mounted
> between the rear main bearing cap and the block. I looked on the 164 Car Disk
> and I could not find any reference to a cigarette seal. In the manual it is
> not very clear if the cigarette seal comes in contact with the rear seal.

I have my 2.5l Milano engine apart now...it should be the same. Yes, the
cig seals are between the block and the rear bearing cap. They do not contact
the rear seal. You can replace the rear seal without removing the cap. You
just have to remove the flywheel.
I haven't looked for green loctite yet. Mine was assembled with the grey
stuff too and it took the air rachet a good long time on each bolt.
--
Colin Verrilli     Raleigh, NC     verrilli@vnet.ibm.com
'84 GTV6        '87 Milano Gold         '94 164LS Auto

Date:    Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:14:01 -0400
Subject: Rear head access
From: ed 

The rear head can be removed without removing the engine.  I've done it, and i 
am not a car mechanic.  Ok it's quite a job, but far from impossible.  I give
you a quick list of the main things to do.
1. Remove front valance and radiator.
2. Remove all induction pipe work covering rear head and top mount.
3.  Take front and rear exhaust manifolds off.
4. Remove alternator and all of the front mounting. (obviously support the engine from below!!)
5. Take gear  box mouting off.
6. Don't forget gear linkage- uncouple.
7. Undo rear mounting- long extension bar or from reaching through in wheel arch.
8.  Roll engine forward using two jack or a hoist.

Note this is does not include every  step by half.  Use you commonsence and take it slowly.
There is plenty of room and you do not have to remove the drive sharfts!!
Check the head well and recondition the belt tensioner.
Hope this helps a bit
ED