From: FredAlfa@aol.com
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 21:39:38 -0500
Subject: 164  Not starting almost instantly

Have you noticed that it takes a little more cranking before your 164 will
start?  I decided to find and cure the problem before it got so bad it might
just quit entirely somewhere out in the sticks on a stormy night.

I decided to test the fuel pressure because there was no change in engine
speed when I pulled the vacuum hose off of the pressure regulator.  A small
loss of power, noticeable under acceleration might indicate a fuel problem.
 Pulling that hose simulates vacuum loss, as when flooring the gas pedal.

The 164 fuel pump is located inside the fuel tank, and it's known as a
submersible type.  An advantage is that it can deliver high pressure without
the need to lift fuel to it before it can pump it out.  It runs cooler too at
the bottom of the tank.

I attached the pressure gauge at the upstream side of the fuel rail to read a
pressure of about 30 psi.  A pressure too low for ideal running and barely
enough to keep the engine from stalling.  Testing the regulator to make sure
it was not letting the fuel flow past it unchecked proved it was ok.
 Changing the fuel filter did not improve the pressure.  Opening the fuel
lines and blowing compressed air through produced no foreign material that
might have partially blocked fuel flow.

Another clue came when upon turning the pump off, the fuel pressure dropped
to zero faster than the buildup to 30psi.  The check valve on top of the fuel
pump must not be holding and so the pump and check valve must come out and be
replaced.   The 164 fuel pump is not in an easy place to work on, in fact, it
is a bear to remove made more difficult if you have no patience.

A close visual examination of the pump and hoses showed nothing so in went a
brand new pump and check valve.  After it was put together the test showed
reduced pressure to 23psi with pressure dropping even faster upon shut down.

What could the problem be, I asked myself over and over again.  If the check
valve on top of the pump was holding (I had checked it before) then it had to
be leaking somewhere between the valve and the angle hose fitting on top of
the tank.  A section of black externally braided hose about two inches long
which is clamped to the underside of the external angle fitting must be where
the leak has to be found.  It looked as good as new showing no breaks
whatsoever.  Being certain that piece of hose was where the break was, I cut
and peeled off the braid to expose a plain black rubber hose.  It did not
look any different than a brand new piece so I began to bend it and
immediatly saw 3 very thin cuts along the center running about an inch long
half way between hose clamps.

Reinstalled with a new section of hose, the engine fired up instantly and the
pressure went to 45psi running normally and 50psi when the regulator was
activated.  ( I had activated the pump so there was fuel and full pressure in
the rail)

There is no way you can find problems without using proper instrumentation
and common sense.

Southwest Florida  December 23rd 1996

-------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 17:37:53 -0600 (CST)
From: Dave Hillman 
Subject: 164 hard starting

I had this problerm on my '91 164L at about 48k miles.  For a while it
took 5 or 6 tries before it fired and I experienced rough running.
Curiously enough, it started better on a full tank of petrol.  The problem
was eventually traced to the fuel pump fuel feed line inside the tank; the
rubber line had decayed in some way. (I assume a full tank created more
pressure and helped it to start quicker).  Parts cost $8, labor $200.

--------------------

From: FredAlfa@aol.com
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 10:24:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: alfa-digest V4 #182

Carl Chen,
Regarding the hard starting of your 164 when it's hot.  If you will open the
throttle fairly wide and it starts when hot, the problem may be in the
constant idle speed unit.  The other possibility is that the temperature
sensor is leaning out out too much.  Read the resistance of the sensor when
it is hot.  It should not be less than 250 ohms.  You might want to check the
memory to see what it tells you.  Guessing seldom finds a problem, one must
make tests.  Let me know what you find.  Fred Di Matteo

From: Brad Anesi 
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:14:17 -0800
Subject: 164 Rough Running at Idle -Reply

 Dave Jackson  wrote...

>Well, I did it!
>I bought my first 164, a silver with black leather interior.  84k miles,
>1991 base model.
Welcome to the club  ...membership has its privileges  ...along with some
occasional headaches.

>Next thing I know, it's running rough near the idle speed, and when
>speeds approach idle (down shifting).
Three SWAG guesses...
1) Coolant temperature sensor or wire is problematic
2) Idle stabilizer needs to be cleaned/lubricated
3) Rip/crack in the rubber intake hose allowing intake of unmetered O2

First thing to do is check the On-Board Diagnostics (OBD).  There is a
button on the lower part of the steering column which should be pushed
and held for 5 seconds with the key in the on position.  If it keeps blinking
4 times everything is fine ...as far as the Motronic knows.  Try this first
and let us know the results.  I had a similar symptom with mine once after
cleaning the engine - went away after full warm-up - suspect the
coolant sensor got wet and provided false reading.

Good luck,

Brad
'91 164B 5-speed

----------------------------

From: "Peter C. Griffith" 
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:30:04 -0500
Subject: 164 rough running

There must be 1000 reasons for a car to run rough: but I did experience
similar symptoms to the ones you describe recently, and managed to fix
them with a little advice from Fred DiMatteo (thanks Fred!).

My 95 164LS suddenly started running rough.  It would hesitate at
freeway speeds, and die completely when slowing down for a stop.  It
would restart only with full throttle, and continue running only if held
above 3000 rpm.  Pretty rough on the clutch.  I put in some gas
treatment, which misled me by having some small effect, ran several
tanks of gas through, and changed to fuel filter.  Still the problem
persisted.

Finally, Fred told me to pull the fuel pump out of the tank in the trunk
(boot).  He suggested deterioration of the two pieces of fuel-injection
grade (high pressure) fuel line.  I replaced these even though they
looked fine by visual inspection.  I also found a layer of black crud
several millimeters thick in the bottom of the plastic cup that the fuel
filter sits in.  This I washed out with isopropyl alcohol.  And I found
that the anti-backflow valve on top of the fuel pump had a loose
fitting, which I tightened carefully on reassembly.

The car stumbled twice more immediately afterwards and has run perfectly
since.  Unfortunately, since three things were changed during my service
intervention, I can't isolate the cause.  But I suspect that the black
crud was the cause of the problem, and that it ran rough twice more
because there was still a bit of it in the fuel system still.

Pulling the fuel pump is a real pain in the neck, so I hate to recommend
anyone doing it without good cause, but you might consider it.

-----------------------
From: Mark Jones 
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:32:00 -0400
Subject: 164S idle / stumble

In response to Mark F. Domby's posting re: 164S idle problems

I too have that idle stumble problem.  I replaced the idle air valve
with no better results.  Last week I was reading through the Technical
Service Bulletins on my new CarDisc CD and saw one which might pertain.
It involved checking the coolant temperature sensor connector and wire.
Make sure there is slack in the wire to the connector.  It seems the
wire can be too tight and maybe not allow good contact at the connector.
 It also said to check the connector for coolant infiltration which
again might affect the resistance the computer reads.  I haven't had a
chance to check this on mine, but thought I'd pass this on.
Theoretically, it makes sense as a probable cause.

-----------------------

From: Mark Jones 
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:27:00 -0400
Subject: 164 Idle / stumble

Jose Puig,

I just solved this problem on my wife's 164S.  I cleaned the coolant
sensor connector and made sure the wire had slack in it.  No more
problems reported in the last 2 weeks.  Try it, hopefully your problem
is as simple as as mine was.

------------------------

From: Lux Lethal 
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:12:11 +0100 (BST)
Subject: 164 idle

Whats your battery voltage like? A/C uses a lot of electrical juice and if 
your battery/alternator is not in top condition it will effect your idle speed.

Normally increased battery drain on a battery thats rundown(either just old or 
due to an alternator fault), will cause the idle to drop, sometimes to jump 
about, although I never known it to make the idle go up and stay up? (you did 
say it went up? I cant remember) Although if the problem is the 
battery/alternator it could also effect you ECU if it is not getting the 
correct voltage?

Things to check/do:

Voltage of battery when car is off (at terminals), usa an AVO or similar.
Voltage of battery when car is on ,at console and at terminals (they should be 
the same)
Voltage of battery when car and A/C is on, at console and battery. If you 
battery voltage drops below 12V then your battery/alternator could be the 
problem, if it drops well below 12V ca 10V then your battery/alternator is 
buggered.

Also check the voltage across your alternator, it should be at least 12V.

If you dont have an AVO or similar or dont know how to use one then the 
alternative is to take the car out for a run then stop it on your drive and 
let it tick over. Watch your idle speed and battery voltage on the console.
Turn you A/C on and observe. What for the electric fan to kick in and keep 
watching. Turn an as much electrical stuff as possible lights/full beam, fog 
lamps, stereo etc and observe what happens to the idle speed/battery voltage.

If the the idle gets worse the more electrical stuff you turn on then the 
problem is likely to be the battery/alternator especially if the voltage on 
your console is low (12V or less), if your battery/alternator are working well 
the voltage on your console should read between 13-15V at idle, if it is a 
little lower rev your engine to 4k rpm you should see the voltage come up a 
bit.

If this gives you no information then or indicates that the battery/alternator 
are fine the probelm could be your ECU or A/C or both.  

Your A/C may be drawing too much curent, although if it was excessive it 
should blow the fuse.  Alternatively your A/C could be causing another 
componant to over heat/cool?

From: bjanesi@juno.com (Bradley J. Anesi)
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 23:28:47 EDT
Subject: Pat Braden's Diagnosis on Project 164

Thought you all might find this helpful and/or educational for future
problem diagnosis on fuel-injected Alfas.

--------- Begin forwarded message ----------

Reluctantly, I'll list some causes. The reluctance comes from the
realization that you may not be able to troubleshoot the system
adequately unless you have the Alfa diagnostic scan tool. 

First off, relax: it's most likely something perfectly obvious. Retrace
all your steps (again) before going on.

Check that the throttle plate is opening fully (most likely cause).Be
sure the cruise control cable doesn't interfere with the operation of the
throttle cable.

Check that the flapper valve in the volume air flow meter is not sticking
and moves smoothly over its entire range (2nd most likely).

Verify that all 6 plugs are getting power and firing (failed/weak coil
pack).

Verify that all 6 ignition wires are correctly connected.

Verify the signal from the RPM and Timing sensor (near crank pulley --
not likely, the engine is not supposed to start without this signal -- I
think this is a Hall-effect signal that changes frequency with speed, so you
need a Fluke meter or oscilloscope for this).

Verify the output of the Throttle Min/Max Switch at its connector. Min
switch [pin 2 at connector] changes state at 1 degree throttle plate
angle:
Max switch [WOT -- pin 3] changes state at 72 degrees, or near WOT. Pin
18 on the connector is ground.

Verify fuel pressure at the rail >@40 psi.

Check that the evaporation solenoid valve for the charcoal canister is
operating, and not blocked open.

Clean air filter?

Brake drag?

I hate to mention this remote possibility, but... Motronic 4.1 has a
default mode which ignores the inputs of the sensors and relies on
internal maps for fuel and ignition values. This is the "fail-safe" mode. 

In order to verify fail-safe operation, you need a way to read trouble
codes, and specific Alfa information about which failures elicit the
fail-safe mode in the 164.  This is activated via a button on the
steering column.
The most certain check is to use a proper tool.

As a guide, in general Motronic terms, any fault which interferes with
the system going into closed loop will eventually result in fail-safe
operation. Components which can keep the system from going into closed
loop include the Oxygen sensor itself, coolant temp sensor, throttle position
sensors/switches, air flow meter, etc. So this is not a simple diagnosis.
If the holes in the exhaust system are close enough or large enough to
keep the Oxygen sensor below its minimum operating temperature, then you'll be
in fail-safe mode. 

If you can get the appropriate diagnostic tool, be sure to check whether
there's a trouble code for the long-term fuel trim value going
out-of-spec.
If it has exceeded its limits the system will be in fail-safe, and the
cause will have to be corrected before the system can go into
closed-loop.
Long-term trim values can be excessively rich or lean, and the fix
depends
on which flavor shows up. 

Electronically controlled automatic transaxles also have a fail-safe mode
(locked in 3rd gear) which will give poor performance and high gas
consumption. The causes of fail-safe in the trans include a failure of
sensor signals, or a disparity between any two of them (loss of logic).

You should be able to erase all the active codes simply by disconnecting
the battery for a few seconds. If nothing has really failed and you've
been in fail-safe because of some intermittent fault, then this will allow you
back into normal mode until a significant fault is re-detected by the
system.

...just some thoughts....

If this has proved valuable, you may want to post it back to the AD as
general information.

From: Tony Wood 
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 10:42:08
Subject: Re: stumbling 164 when cold

>
>My 1991 164 with 94,000 miles has developed an odd quirk.  When the motor
>is first started in the morning, it acts as though it wants to stall.  If
>I try to engage the clutch it will stall unless I apply enough accelerator
>to overcome the attempted stall.  Funny thing is that after almost
>stalling the engine seems to "catch itself" and the car is ready to run.
>The computer identifies no problems and everything else seems fine. Anyone
>out there with any ideas as to a cause??

Please forgive if I quote a previous posting, but it may be simply
this:

>>Sounds like it could be the idle control valve. This valve is at the
>>back of the airbox (the big alloy box across the top of the engine on
>>fuel-injected cars), near the firewall.  Its function is to admit air
>>to control slow running speed. 
>>
>>Identify it by tracing a 3/4" rubber tube from near the throttle
>>butterfly to the valve, which is made of alloy, is about 2 1/2"
>>diameter  and 3" long, and plugs into the back of the airbox. There
>>is also an electrical connecting plug on the end of the box opposite
>>the rubber tube.
>>
>>Disconnect everything and remove the valve, which is held in place
>>by a simple clip and 10mm bolt.  Squirt carburettor cleaner aerosol
>>into the hole on the valve where it mounts to the airbox, put your
>>thumb over both holes and shake. Drain.  Repeat until the fluid comes
>>out clean (clear and colourless).  I find a squirt of WD40 inside
>>helps.  Then remount the valve, renewing hose-clips if necessary. 
>>
>>This saves you a chunk of money (because the valve is not cheap), is
>>risk-free, and works almost every time.  Console yourself with the
>>knowledge that BMW owners (identical system) consider this a routine
>>replacement item! 

Tony Wood
England 

From: Mark Jones 
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:24:00 -0400
Subject: 164 stumble possible causes

I also had the described stumble problem on my '91 164S, and is now
cured.  I did several things, and offer these suggestions:

1) Leaky valve seal causing burned oil to fool the oxygen sensor into
telling the FI system to overlean the mixture.  Check for a fouled plug
in 1 (or more) cylinders.  If so have valve guide seal(s) replaced.
This was the most probable cause on my car.

2) Check/clean electrical connections in the FI system, specifically the
coolant sensor connection.  Make sure there is slack in the wire to the
coolant sensor, preventing engine movement from making an intermittent
connection.

3) Replace the rubber gasket at the idle air valve to intake plenum
connection, and lube with silicone grease ensure a good seal.

Mark Jones
'91 164S
'92 164L
'86 GTV6 

From: Ferdinando Di Matteo 
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 08:57:48 +0000
Subject: Re: alfa-digest V4 #593

John Justus writes;
"My 164S also fails to start immediately and idle when cold when the
ambient air is above 60 (F) degrees.  It is hard to get moving from a
standstill until it has had about 20 seconds to warm up.  With ambient
air below 60 it starts, idles and moves off from a stop with no
hesitation."

John, I would check the resistance of the coolant temperature sensor
when it is at full operating temp. and just before you start it in the
morning when it usually acts up.  When fully up to op yrmp it should not
be less than 250 ohms. At 68 degrees F. it should be not less than 2000
ohms.  Be sure that the connector is secure on the sensor and that there
is plenty of slack between it and the chassis. That's important in
164s.  Good luck finding the problem, the cure should be easy.  Fred Di
Matteo  Fort Myers Florida  USA AROC Tech.

From: karlcchen@juno.com (KARL C CHEN)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:42:08 -0700
Subject: 164 jerking motion when engine cold ?

This week. my 92 164SO developed a temperature related problem.
When driving with cold engine at slow speed about 30-40 mph, 
when coasting or with minimum gas feeding.  It will suddenly
seems loosing power and comes back immediately causing a
jerking motion, like fuel is being cut off in a short time.
The problem does not happen when engine is hot.  This usually
happened every Morning before I reach freeway, which is about  
3 miles of local driving.  The symptom is easily provoked when
driving at 30-40 mph in 4th gear, when you release gas pedal 
but not pressing clutch.  It will suddenly cause that jerking 
motion, but only once.  Does not get into chain reaction.

Anyone knows what's wrong or has similar problem before ?

Thanks,
Karl 92 164SO, San Jose, CA. USA.    

From: "smalcaid, (Capt Porter)" 
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:42:49 -0700
Subject: 164 Jerking and Idle Update

Karl,

Your 164 jerking problem on deceleration may be caused by a loose intake
plenum boot (the big honkin' black hose), and a worn torque rod bushing
(the one on top right side of engine that keeps fore and aft motion in
check). When you decelerate, the boot comes loose slightly and the
engine jerks. Worth a check.

From: karlcchen@juno.com (KARL C CHEN)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 21:50:27 -0700
Subject: 164 Jerking motion, culprit found

I got new torque rod bushing( on the body side ).  
I remove the old one and found it is torn.
Now the problem is I need have the old bushing pressed 
out and new one pressed in.  The cost of doing this 
probably is more than buying the entire torque assembly !

The bushing on engine side is not in great shape but probably
can last a while because it doesn't move a lot.  It is also
impossible to remove now because you have to remove the timing
belt !  I'll have it replaced at the next timing belt change.

Karl 92 168S

From: karlcchen@juno.com (KARL C CHEN)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:02:19 -0700
Subject: Another kind of reliability

OK, I replaced the broken torque bushing. It seems to cure the
jerking problem. Thanks Al Porter's suggestion.

From: john brooks 
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:38:13 -0600
Subject: RE 164 cold start 

Brett

 I was real tempted to call you up and buy your 164L you were selling a
while back, but being in Colorado the problems of buying long distance
were too much to deal with.  I think I want an S as well.  I bought a
164L three years ago to replace my GTV6 but my wife decided the 164 was
hers and I never could part with the GTV6.  

I've been messing with the cold idle hestitation on my, no her 91 164L,
did all the service manual checks.  Disconnected the battery when I
removed the IAC (idle air control, bypasses air around the throttle) to
see if it was closing on high rpm, it was, but with the battery
reconnected and computer reset the car wouldn't idle at all, I then
disconnected the lead wire to the IAC and the fail safe position gave
enough air to idle.  I still couldn't conclusively tell whether the
problem was the IAC valve, the computer or the air/flow meter and took
it in to the local alfa dealer to hook up to their diagnostic gizmo. 
Computer was ok, and they had an IAC in the spares bin so they replaced
it and it idles. 40 degrees here this morning and no hestitation, so
they got it fixed, unfortunately it was a try and see type fix rather
than a positive knowing what was wrong, but the IAC is the cheaper of
the three suspects at $220.

jjbrooks@nyx.net  Denver
91 164L 91k

From: "E. W. 'Skip' Testut" 
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 12:47:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 164 cold start stumbling... redux

A few months ago I
 mentioned on the A-D that my 164 would start well in
the morning, but would threaten to stall (i.e., stumble) when I would put
it into first gear.  This only happened during the cold start (first of the
day).  I had many responses and a complete discussion of the cold start
stumbling can be found on the 164 home page.  Anyway, none of the fixes
worked for my car until this week when my 164 started backfiring, running
very roughly, and then finally die altogether.  The cause: a busted rotor
AND distributor cap.  I've never seen a worse case of rotor/distributor
cap failure in my life.  As the rotor and cap were only 16,000 miles old
I had never suspected any problems there.  Summary, add a defective
rotor and/or distributor cap to the list of cold start stumbling causes.

A special thanks to Samir, Tony W., and Mark J. for your suggestions and
comments. They were all very good; they just didn't work this time!!

Skip
1991 164 Base (96000 miles)

From: Bruce Murray 
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:35:45 -0500
Subject: Re: 91 164L cold start/stumble problems

Levi writes about his cold start problems which sound similar to those I
have had but no longer.

Assuming he has done the right thing and checked his coolant temperature
sensor and its connection,made sure the plugs are good and that the engine
is sound in wind and limb etc. etc.  the next thing I did which completely
cured my problem was:-

Carefully (!) remove the cover of the air meter and expose the wiper
assembly. Squirt on some electronic contact cleaner and work the flap
around. this will dislodge small pieces of carbon dust on the track and
improve the contact reliability.

Remove the old silicon RTV sealent and carefully lay in a new bead of RTV
and reinstall the cover.

It worked like a charm and the car no longer stumbles even in cold weather
like it had done for a loong time.

It is analagous to cleaning scratchy volume controls on radios for those
who've done this.

It is not for the faint of heart or a beginner either.

I am sure this is not a Bosch approved repair but at least it worked for me
and also clearly identified the culprit.

I'd be interested to know if and when you try this and of course the result.

From: Carguymb@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:33:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: 164 Hesitation

Don Suiter asked:
It is time to ask the digest a question about a friends 91 Alfa 164L. 
This car has bas 85K on the clock and is an automatic.  Other than the
normal 164 problems it has a real hard hesitation when it starts out but
as soon as it picks up RPM it is fine.  This only occurs when the engine
is warm/hot at operating temperature.  It is fine cold and the car runs
well at road speed.  Any thoughts?  It occurs after you shift into drive
or from a stop and feels like the engine is going to die about 3 times
in a row before you get beyond the flat spot or hesitation.

Don,

My previous '91 164L had similar symptoms.  Turned out to be the coolant
temperature sensor, and/or it's wiring.

Martin Bullen

From: LoweJacks@aol.com
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:03:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 164 Hesitation

Don Suiter posted a problem with hesitation on his 164. This sounds like a
problem I had when a bought my 164 (1992 twinspark) but on long journeys the
car would hesitate and kangaroo. After months of having every circuit checked
I read an article in a British BMW magazine problem page where another driver
had a similar problem, the magazine recommended changing the air-flow meter.
As my car was still under warranty the unit was replaced - problem fixed.

It seemed that the vane would stick only when up to full operating temp, so
when checked cold there was no problem. 

From: Mark Jones 
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:44:00 -0500
Subject: 164 stumble hesitation - my solution

A few weeks ago, someone posted to the digest about problems related to
distributor and rotor wear.  I had big problems last summer with
stumbling, hesitation and bucking.  This was minimized by replacing the
idle valve rubber seal, the O2 sensor and new spark plugs.  But, the
lessened problem stil showed up periodically.  After seeing the post
about the distributor / rotor replacement, I thought to check mine.

In the days of little or no required maintenence on computer controlled
engine management systems, it is easy to forget to replace the some
parts which still wear out.  I never thought to check the distibutor and
rotor, even the owners manual service guide doesn't mention to check or
replace it.

To make a long story longer..................that was my problem.  It
runs sooooo smoothly now.  I am amazed I didn't think to check that.

Yes, the distributor cap is also a part fitting the 6 series BMW,
however, my parts guy said the rotor is indeed different.  The
distributor cap was less than half of the dealer's price at the local
auto parts chain store.  Even for the genuine Bosch part.

From: Alan Lambert 
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:40:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Stumbling 164L

Well, I've got the car back. It runs. The only thing the mechanic changed 
was a kink in the fuel return line. ( He looked for that because the gas 
tank seems to have excessive pressure in it--when you remove the gas cap, 
the escaping air is very strong ) He doesn't think that should have made 
a difference, but so far (one day) so good.

Does anyone know the cause of high pressure in the tank?

I have had the filler pipe recall performed--I don't remember the 
pressure being high prior to then, but am not sure.

Date:    Fri, 11 Dec 1998 19:02:21 -0500
From:    "Mark Jones" 
Subject: My 164 stumbling problem resolved

This is long

We picked up the wife's 164S last Thursday after almost a full month apart,
the next day found me at the racetrack, Summit Point for the last FATT of
the year.  The weather was cloudy, but temp in the mid 60s.  What a lucky
day at the track in December.  The car had been apart for the heads to be
worked on by Peter Krause, replacement of all rubber in the suspension,
installation of Shankle headers, and new brakes and clutch, I was here to
test it out.  (I needed to make sure it was safe for hauling the kids and
driving to the grocery store)

The car had all new valve stem seals and guides installed. I had suspected
it was burning oil, causing the Motronic system to lean out the fuel
mixture.  Peter said the old valve stem seals were crumbly (well cooked from
the common overheating problem and 112000 miles of use).  He did reshape the
bowl for better swirl in the chamber, but not a full port and polish.

Rosanova Alfa replaced the suspension bushings and reinstalled the heads and
headers.  While the engine was apart, it was time to replace the complete
clutch system including Master and Slave Cylinders, the original clutch was
still in it after 112K miles of city driving, and was not even close to
wearing down to the rivets. (I will never again critique my wife's clutch
action).  Sources of oil leaks were also remedied.

On track the car was shocking, amazing!  I had driven it on the track once
before.  It still pitches like the heavy sedan it is.  Stock brakes, street
tires and stock suspension do not make a race car, but this was still
incredible.  I had to slightly saw on the steering wheel coming out of turns
2 and 9 to keep the inside front wheel in contact with the ground, IT WAS
SPINNING from the additional power!  I was giddy with excitement.  I could
drag race anyone down the straight with only the 944 turbo and the Esprit
turbo passing. (I did lift to let everyone pass as I was clearly holding up
the fast run group in most turns)  Even my friend (a Porsche club instructor
w/ a full race 911) could not pass me on the straight until I lifted off the
gas.  By the last session, I was apparently turning 1:32 times according to
the same 911 instructor buddy.  What a blast!

The car was returned to my wife for her use still in one piece.  She has
also driven on the track before and will certainly take it again.

It is definitely a car to spend the money (and time) to replace all of the
old rubber, fix the oil leaks and redo the heads and make it ready for
another 100,000 miles.  I still have not installed the upgrade FI chip from
AR Ricambi, I have it, and will report to the AD on my impressions.  But the
engine now is certainly faster than the stock chassis and brakes can use
with just Shankle headers and Peter Krause's mild head work.

For you others with well used, high mileage 164s, thinking of buying another
car DON'T, recycle it.  It is still better than any new sedan under
$40-50,000, and has a soul others don't.

Oh, BTW it doesn't have the stumbling/hesitation/bucking problem anymore.
The only item replaced to have an affect on the engine's rough running was
valve seal and guide replacement.  I must say I am convinced my
rough running problems were caused by the oil leaking at the valve seals.
Not enough
to make blue smoke (modern FI systems and catalytic converters won't allow
it), but enough to make it run very poorly.

Loving the high 164S

Date:    Tue, 02 Mar 1999 14:41:09 -0500
From:    David Bishop <dbisho1@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: High RPM in 164


I just took my 164 Base into Peter Krause this morning, the car was exhibiting
CHECK ENGINE lights, cutting off when idling below 1000RPM (even in mid-corner
when downshifting and not getting back on the gas quickly enough, losing power steering,
NOT FUN), and sputtering during acceleration. It turns out that it was fouled plugs,
and Peter (knowing how I baby my cars) instructed me to rev the car higher during
acceleration. I have to admit I've hardly ever taken the car during acceleration over
4500 RPM. I guess I need to master the art of Italian tune-ups   ;-)

David

'91 Base 164

Date:    Fri, 23 Oct 1998 20:21:15 -0400
From:    Mark Domby 
Subject: RE: 164S question #2 (surging)

I have had the same thing happen a LOT to my 91 S. The first onset was
around 23-25K miles, where I complained aboout it enough to my dealer, and
they eventually told me it needed a complete valve job and cleaning that
would cost a load. My warranty covered it, and it took care of the problem
for a long while. It came back around 50k, and a good long dose of Chevron's
Techron took care of it. I think it's just overaccumulation of deposits on
the valves, or something like that. 
My suggestion: give her a good dose of Chevron's Techron, or something as
good (any suggestions digesters???). It might take a couple of tanks full,
but make sure as soon as you're done to get an oilchange (maybe waiting
until your close to the next change would be a good economical idea) b/c
some of the solvent may thin your oil. 
Mark Domby
91 164S blk/blk Recaros, 59K miles  (Gabrielle)

Date:    Sun, 25 Oct 1998 16:04:12 -0700 (MST)
From:    Marcantonio Sandro 
Subject: Surging 164.

My experience with the 164's is that they seem to like to surge for
several reasons.  The first reason, that is a simple one, is that you have
a bad sparkplug that is fouled. Change all six and see what happens.  The
next thing to check is the airflow meter hose for cracks. If there is a
split here the mixture goes lean and makes you buck at low rpms.  Hope
this tip helps.

Date:    Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:54:56 EST
From:    Tonywoodtw@aol.com
Subject: Re: Surging 164

<<  My experience with the 164's is that they seem to like to surge for
 several reasons.  ......
 a bad sparkplug that is fouled. ....  The next thing to check is the airflow
meter hose for cracks.  >>

...and it's worth checking the connections to the "choke" temperature sensor
under the thermostat; a bad connection *under* the rubber cover caused an
intermittent fault on my V6 which gave sudden unpredictable surges for months
until I traced it by examining the 2-pin plug more carefully.

Tony Wood
England

Date:    Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:50:04 -0600 
From:    "Reddy, Jay" 
Subject: 164 Surging fix

Hi All,
Forgot to report on this during the 164 surging discussion, a fix that
almost eliminated the surging on my car is as follows; replace all the
single use factory hose clamps on the plenum to airbox hose's auxiliary
connections with regular screw style hose clamps - six in all, I
believe, four about an inch in diameter and two a little bigger.
Made a surprising difference on my car, the old clamps look better but
after seven years the hoses need something tighter to keep the leaks at
bay.  I still have a little surging but only when the engine is cold.

Jay Reddy - Austin TX
'65 Giulia Spider Veloce - no surge
'91 164 S - cold surge

Date:    Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:51:13 EST
From:    Westphal50@aol.com
Subject: 164S bucking, surging solution

My acceleration from stop has been plagued with a bucking or surging for some
time now.  The problem turned out to be a cracked air flow meter boot that was
evident only when it was removed.  Of course, it was very evident to the air
flow meter when the torque was applied to the wheels; it caused it to
separate.

Thanks for all the tips.

Dave Westphal

Date:    Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:23:02 -0600
From:    Kevin.FILLIP@st.com
Subject: 164 Warm Start Procedures

     >bofusric@webtv.net (ric salinas) writes....

     >When cold the engines fires up with no problem, but when I drive and 
     >let is sit for 30 minutes and restart, it has a long crank and while 
     >start and die. I have to give it a little gas in order for it to stay 
     >running....
     >
     >Jonathan had a problem like this which was instantly cured by 
     >replacing the fuel pressure regulator.

     >Brad Anesi
     >'91 Project 164Q 5-speed

     While this may be in fact be a fuel delivery problem, the owners 
     manual actually tells you to give the car a little gas when starting 
     warm. I was quite surprised when I read this having also experienced 
     the long crank start/die symptom when starting from warm, but have 
     found that the owners manual instruction works like a charm. End of 
     problem.

     Kevin Fillip
     Dallas, Tejas

     '91 164
     '91 Spider
     '88 Milano

Date:    Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:23:33 -0500
From:    Ferdinando Di Matteo 
Subject: 164 warm engine hard start

Why do I think the problem is not with fuel pressure at the injectors or
why it cannot be the fuel pump check valve or short hose?  Because if that
were so, it would not have fuel at the rail when cold.  Since there is no
cold-start injector, the enriched mixture signal comes from the brain and
all injectors open to enrich.  If it is necessary to open the hrottle some,
then the idle air unit is not opening enough, you still should not open the
throttle to start.  Fred Di Matteo, AROC Technical Advisor. 

From: mborn@brynmawr.edu (Matthew Born)
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 15:08:14 -0400
Subject: 164 oil pressure

Hello again,

In AD 207 Mike Israel talks about the low oil pressure readings given when
hot by his 164. This is a fairly common item on Alfas, Mike, and the fault
is almost always with the gauge. Although my 164 seems to read normal, my
GTV6 shows virtually 0 psi at hot idle. A quick hookup to an external gauge
will tell the truth. The dealer should be able to confirm good pressure for
you with an external gauge easy enough. On a positive note, while rarely
correct, they are almost always consistent. So if you confirm that it is
just reading really low, you can still use it to monitor pressure by
checking changes to the usual readings; for instance, no longer reading 55
psi when at cold idle.

Matthew Born

-----------------------

From: "Chen, Karl" 
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 14:47:03
Subject: Re: 164 Oil pressure


 Mine 92 164S which I got it two months ago does the same thing.
 When cold, pressure is a bit higher than 55 psi even in idle.
 When hot, it is low, but a bit more than zero.
 I used mobile 1 15W/50.  We need someone who has 164 since new
 tell us if this is normal.

 I was surprised by the great difference in hot and cold,
 I remembered somewhere in manual it says, when idle oil
 pressure should be at least 7 psi, so I wasn't too concerned
 about low pressure because when on highway it does go up
 to 55 psi.

 On the other hand, Alfa gauge should not be trusted to much ?
 I noticed the ext. temp. isn't very inaccurate too.

 Karl 92 164S