Also see Motronic Self-Diagnosis
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 96 14:48:08 -0400
From: FredAlfa@aol.com
Subject: 164 owners
Would it not be nice for you 164 owners to know what went wrong if and when
your car suddenly started acting up? To know what to tell your favorite
repair man exactly what the problem is?
It occured to me that not many 164 owners are aware of the great system to
detect and record faults by reading an easy code built into the 164.
I think you should know how to extract that code and then read the answer
from the list. Even I benefitted, just a few days ago, when my 164 refused
to start instantly, the "Check Engine" warning light was on. That's
something that has not happend since November of 1990, 110K miles ago.
Like many of you when faced with an early medical appointment, I simply
coaxed it to finally start, kept it running until it warmed up enough to
drive off, about 5 minutes later. When I got home I then extracted the fault
code.
I pressed the button under the steering column for 3 seconds with the
ignition switch on and watched the "CHECK ENGINE" warning light flash
1-2-1-4. The code is repeated a number of times so you have time to get it
right. Which indicated a problem with the coolant temperature sensor. A very
rare failure because it has no moving parts.
Because the sensor is under a hose from the thermostat, the sensor is not
immediately seen without a mirror. Surprise, the connector had been jarred
loose and was just hanging there. The Bosch connectors have a wire spring
retainer to prevent the connector from coming off easily. Some get broken
and lost when some strong arm mechanic is too impatient to release the
spring. Out of sight, out of mind.
There are several procedures to follow, depending on which codes you want to
check. In the 164 Electrical Shop manual, find under "MOTRONIC" all you
need to know. If you do not own the set of expensive manuals, one of our
AROC Technical Advisors can help, just read out the code and give us the
numbers. We can tell you what's wrong.
Another very good reason to join AROC,
Fred Di Matteo, AROC Tech Advisor etc.
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:35:17 -0800
From: karl.doll@sanjose.vlsi.com (Karl Doll)
Subject: 164LS (24v) timing belt, etc
I just had my 20K mile service done at the local dealer, and learned a few
things that should be of interest to 164LS (24v) owners. I stopped in in
mid-afternoon and was the only customer there. The Service Manager (GTV-6
owner) was not too busy and I enjoyed chatting and asked a laundry list of
questions that have come up recently. I also got to check out a Maserati
Bora and a Ferrari Daytona that was in for a VERY EXPENSIVE tune-up and
valve adjustment. Very informative and helpful:
(2) They use standard Bosch diagnostic equipment for the FI system. For the
climate control, airbag, and maybe the ABS (not sure what the third system
he mentioned was), he has a Marelli tester that is a hand-held device with
an LCD. It comes with various plug-in modules for each of the car's systems
being checked. (This is what he simply called a "laptop" computer when I
asked last year when he was in a hurry. This time he showed it to me!). It
looks expensive and not many independent mechanics will have one. (I see
this as a concern for long-term support if the dealers start disappearing.)
From: "Colin Verrilli"
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 97 15:50:30 -0400
Subject: 164 check engine #1251
A couple weeks ago, the check engine light came on in my '94 164LS.
I used the self-diagnosis procedure to read out the code (different
from 91-93 models) and got #1251 which just says "replace the Motronic
ECU". The car is still under emissions warranty, so I called up
Bob at ARDONA Warranty and asked him about it. He advised me to put
"contact enhancer" on the ECU harness. I proceeded to use DeOxit-5
(with brush) on the female plug. It's been ten days now and it hasn't
come back on. Just thought you'd like to know...
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 98 15:09:06 -0400
From: "Colin Verrilli"
Subject: Re: 164LS -- CHECK ENGINE warning light on
cuadra@earthlink.net writes:
> This morning the "check engine" warning light came on and stayed on. All the
> vital signs are normal (oil pressure etc) and it's running exactly the same.
> The owners manual says that the warning light means a fault was detected in
> the electronic injection and ignition system. I called the dealer and they
> said they'd have to hook the car up to their diagnostic mainframe to
> decipher the computer code from the control unit.
There is a procedure for reading the codes without the diagnositic
machine. It's in the service manual (a must if you plan to do your own
maintenance). My first recommendation is to clean the ECU contacts with
DeOxit or Stabilant (See the 164 tech notes, section 40 for product info).
That did the trick on my LS. Of course you have to reset
the light afterwards. You can remove the ECU fuse in the front of the engine
compartment to reset the check engine light.
--
Colin Verrilli Raleigh, NC verrilli@vnet.ibm.com
'84 GTV6 '87 Milano Gold '94 164LS Auto
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:23:25 -0800
From: Nizam Zambri
Subject: Re: 164LS Check Engine Light
Karl,
For six months, I ignored this symptom as well since once I revved up the
engine, the "Check Engine" light went away. One day, after a delightful
young female dance partner pointed it out while sitting at a stoplight, I
decided to fix it. I can't have people think I'm ignoring my car (although
in this instance, I did).
So I pulled out the manual and tapped the gas pedal five times to wake up
the Motronic error codes. What did I find? "Intermittent Connectivity to
one of two knock sensors". Hmmm.
So I went through the engine bay and found the two grey connectors to the
knock sensors. I undid them and sprayed some connector cleaner in them,
followed by a good dose of compressed air, and plugged them back in.
This was a month ago and I haven't heard a peep from the Check Engine
light. So it wasn't the O2 sensor that I originally thought. Regardless,
that fixed it (so far).
Nizam
Alfa 164LS (soon to be 164 Super)
Alfa 75 3.0V6
From: Brad Anesi
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:28:46 -0700
Subject: 164 O2 Sensor
alpo4@juno.com (Alvin L. Porter) wrote...
>Received no response to my post on O2 sensor failures -- my 91 164S
>surges on a 3-4 second cycle. How do I check the oxygen sensor? Car
>has 69K miles on it. Also, the idle is somewhat erratic.
First off, DON'T rely on the OBD to tell you that the O2 sensor is bad.
Mine gave a clean bill of health (4444), even though clearly the O2
sensor was not properly functioning since I had the car from 55K miles.
There are O2 sensor testers available, but here's the easiest way
(recently learned from experience) - have the emissions output checked
on your car (your friendly mechanic or occasionally friendly state
inspection worker may do this at N/C) - if the CO output is above .10%
(factory says .20%), something is not right, most likely the O2 sensor.
Installing a new O2 sensor in my 164 dropped the CO from .44% to .01%.
BTW, using a "universal" 3-wire Bosch sensor will drop your cost from
$150+ for the Alfa part to about $70.
Regarding the erratic idle, you may want to check the idle stabilizer, as
mentioned by Tony Wood a few weeks back. Cleaning and lubrication is
a much cheaper way to go than replacement.
From: Brad Anesi
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:27:46 -0800
Subject: 164 Bosch O2 Sensor -Reply
alpo4@juno.com (Alvin L. Porter) asked...
>Someone recently said they found a 3-wire generic one for around $70
>-- could you please provide me with more details, like manufacturer and
>part #?
That someone would be me. I don't have the part# handy, but the Bosch
universal sensor kit is available from Imparts (800) 325-9043 for $69.
(Ask for Max - it's not listed in their catalog for the 164). Actually, I have
an extra one (still in the original package) if you're interested.
Brad
'91 164B 5-speed
From: karlcchen@juno.com (KARL C CHEN)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:17:16 +0100
Subject: 164 oxygen sensor replaced !
I finally replaced oxygen sensor on my 164S. I lowered the
catalyst converter in stead of remove it as suggested in the
manual because remove a dozen of rusty inaccessible bolts
is just too difficult. I just remove the 4 rusty bolts under
exhaust manifolds. You also need to remove the mid section
hanger but that's easy.
After lowered it about two inches, First I use 7/8" oxygen sensor
socket which I found in local auto store. It turn out the sensor
is so rusty, I cracked the socket and the thing wouldn't even budge !
Finally I bought a long 22mm box-end wrench and cut the wire so I
can slip the wrench in. After a few struggling was able to remove
it without causing any harm on myself. Just wear thick garden
gloves and wear protection on your arms too in case the wrench slip.
Make sure you put anti-seize compound the sensor's thread, but don't
put any on sensor. The compound usually contains lead which can
destroy the catalyst converter.
Karl 92 168S, 59K miles
From: john cumming
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:36:58 -0500
Subject: high fuel consumption 164
A colleage of mine at work has had a similar
problem. After much trouble it was diagnosed as
a faulty lambda probe on the exhaust. This ment
that the car was running on 'enrichment' as the
chip thought that the cat had not warmed up.
After replacement his mpg increased considerably.
johnc
75 3.0 v6 cat (lowered and chipped)
From: "KARL MAXON"
Subject: O2 sensor and 1223 code revisited
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:21:42 -0800
To all:
I've had a few inquiries regarding the 1223 code I had on my '91 164L and
what the solution was. To recap:
My original message:
On my '91 164L, I've gotten both a 1223 code (lambda probe inner adjuster
reaches min or max value of correction), and a 1224 code-once (lambda probe
transmits to control unit a tension > 1.009v or < 0.0928v).
I have reviewed all the available CD ROM manual/technical bulletin
information (Motronic manual troubleshooting guide, TB 90.01, TB 90.03). I
did find that the lambda probe "heater" connector was full of water and
corroded! All other items in the "tests" checked out OK, so I'm highly
suspicious of the O2 sensor. Would your collective experience out there
tell you the O2 has failed? I cleaned the connector, used some Stabilant,
also some dielectric grease for packing, cleared the codes, yet upon
driving the error codes returned.
The car appears to be in fail-safe mode at the moment. In TB 90.01 it is
noted that if the heater connector gets water or condensation in it that
the connection can short out, thus "fouling" the sensor with carbon. All
they indicate in the manuals and TB's is "replace the sensor". No
indication is given on what to do if a sensor is "fouled" (except replace
it).
My question is: Are O2 sensors that are "fouled" cleanable (like a fouled
spark plug)? If so, this could save $$$ for new sensor, and time to
replace it. If cleanable, are there recommended procedures? The current
probe has 45,000 miles on it.
My car exhibited stumble start up and running after it would sit for a few
hours (after being driven). The symptoms came on gradually over a 3-4 day
period, until now what seems to be fail-safe mode and stumble start up and
poor running under most conditions. As indicated above, I checked all the
air boots, hoses, and wiring several times, and the car has newer cap,
rotor, plugs, etc which I also checked several times. It just seems that
both error codes combined point to the O2 sensor, and that it may be
fouled.
End
The final solution was to replace the O2 sensor, as diagnosed at the shop
as follows:
The repair shop verified that the O2 was working, and COULD induce the O2
sensor to respond by pulling the vacuum hose to the cruise control off
(easiest to reach, and wouldn't effect fuel pressure). This threw them off
for awhile, since the readings
from the tailpipe were off the chart. The clue was when they REMOVED the
connection to the O2 sensor, the computer would not go to a "base" setting,
and would stay too rich (the car was running super rich with the O2 sensor
hooked up too), and this led them to investigate a lot of other systems for
potential problems.
The cat conv. was "flooded" as there was lots of fuel and rotten egg smell
(the car had been running rich). ALL other systems checked out perfectly,
and they spent a lot of time investigating every possible item (throttle
body sensor out of adjustment, throttle cable, vacuum leaks, fuel
over-pressure, fuel injectors, all ignition components.
Their solution: Since the O2 would be essentially at one position/reading,
and would only move when induced by a vacuum leak (only at a barely
perceptible level), they replaced the O2 sensor. Upon firing up, it took a
few minutes for the cat to heat up and clean out, but from there on all
readings from
the tailpipe and probe were BETTER than they have ever been on the car
since I've owned it. The car would correctly go to base when the O2 was
disconnected (albeit a little "high" at around .7), and when connected
would fluctuate around a mean of .5
We looked at a print-out from an earlier tune-up (at 95,000 miles),
and while within acceptable range, in hindsight the readings were not
that great (HC=152 CO=.53 CO2=14.64 O2=1.15 Lambda=1.03 AFR=14.9), and
we should have replaced the O2 sensor at that time. Note that the
sensor had only 45,000 miles on it at failure. So, as indicated by
the tech bulletin (for the 1223 code), if everything else checks out,
replace the O2 sensor - which turned out to be correct!!! Readings
upon replacing the O2 sensor: HC=9 CO=0 CO2=15.28 O2=.63 Lambda=1.02
AFR=14.9.
I'm suspect of myself for the failure to some extent as I had done a valve
adjust and belt replacement 2 weeks earlier, and had cleaned and used
Stabilant on every single connector I could find, as well as cleaning the
Idle adjust actuator, air flow meter, throttle body, intake tubes etc on a
car with 105,000 miles. Could it be that all other items were optimized
to some extent with the better connections, which placed the responses from
the O2 sensor (that may have been marginal) somewhat out of range?
Some respondents indicated the O2 sensor could be cleaned, other suggested
not. Either way, if the O2 sensor is pulled, if an inexpensive one is
available it may not hurt to replace it. Note that Fred Di Matteo cautions
that a thorough diagnosis should be made for any problem before parts are
substituted! This is why I ended up taking the car to a shop that could
thoroughly diagnose every system better than I could with the tools I had
available.
Karl Maxon
1991 164L
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 98 10:39:32 -0400
Subject: O2 Sensor and the 1223 Code
From: Karl Maxon
I've had a few inquiries regarding the 1223 code I had on my '91 164L
and what the solution was...On my '91 164L, I've gotten both a 1223
code (lambda probe inner adjuster reaches min or max value of
correction), and a 1224 code-once (lambda probe transmits to control
unit a tension > 1.009v or <0.0928v).
I did find that the lambda probe "heater" connector was full of water
and corro ded! All other items in the "tests" checked out OK, so I'm
highly suspicious of the O2 sensor. Would your collectiv e experience
out there tell you the O2 has failed? I cleaned the connector, used
some Stabilant, also some dielectric grease for packing, cleared the
codes, yet upon driving the error codes returned.
The car appears to be in fail-safe mode at the moment. In TB 90.01 it
is noted that if the heater connector gets water or condensation in it
that the connection can short out, thus "fouling" the sen sor with
carbon. All they indicate in the manuals and TB's is "replace the
sensor." No indication is given on what to do if a sensor is "fouled"
(except replace it)...
My car exhibited stumble start up and running after it would sit for a
few hour s (after being driven). The symptoms came on gradually over a
3-4 day period, until now what seems to be fail-safe m ode and stumble
start up and poor running under most conditions. As indicated above, I
checked all the air boots, hoses, and wiring several times, and the
car has newer cap, rotor, plugs, etc which I also checked several
times. It jus t seems that both error codes combined point to the O2
sensor, and that it may be fouled.
The final solution was to replace the O2 sensor, as diagnosed at the
shop as fo llows: The repair shop verified that the O2 (sensor) was
working, and (they) COULD induce the O2 sensor to respond by pu lling
the vacuum hose to the cruise control off (easiest to reach, and
wouldn't effect fuel pressure). This threw t hem off for a while,
since the readings from the tailpipe were off the chart. The clue was
when they REMOVED the connection to the O2 sensor, the computer would
not go to a "base" setting, and would stay too rich (the car was
running super rich with the O2 sensor hooked up too), and this led
them to investigate a lot of other systems for potential pro blems...
Their solution: Since the O2 would be essentially at one
position/reading, and would only move when induced by a vacuum leak
(only at a barely perceptible level), they replaced the O2 sensor.
Upon firing up, it took a few minutes for the cat to heat up and clean
out, but from there on all readings from the tailp ipe and probe were
BETTER than they have ever been on the car since I've owned it. The
car would correctly go to ba se when the O2 was disconnected (albeit a
little "high" at around .7), and when connected would fluctuate around
a mean o f .5.
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:24:45 -0500
From: sid_l_trest@amoco.com
Subject: Re:164 oxygen sensor
164 oxygen sensor
I'm getting ready to replace the oxygen sensor on my '92 164S. I've read
the manual which says to disconnect the rear of the catalytic converter.
And, I say a post on the list from someone who had disconnected the down
pipes at the manifold flange. Anyone have a view of the better method?
Rob,
The typical Alfa logic applies, the more you take off, the easier the
job really will be.
I took off my converter off entirely and I'm glad I did. My bolts
weren't rusted at the flanges but I would view these as sacrificial
and replace them. Replace the two metal gaskets as well. It took quite
a lot of effort to get the sensor loose and I ended up putting the
converter in my Workmate to hold it while I removed the sensor with a
long handled wrench.
If you haven't bought the new sensor, I would suggest you go to
IMPARTS for a new one. They handle a generic 3 wire type that works
fine and costs much less than the OEM.
Sid
164L
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:20:21 -0800
From: "smalcaid, (Maj Porter)"
Subject: RE: Bouncy idle on 75TS
Kai wrote:
Fellow Alfists, Here's a question for you:
My 75TS is idling very rough. When the motor is warm
it revs between 500 and 1000 Cycles every second.
The coldstart thingies are working fine.
I think it must be some sensor, could someone help
me out here ??
Kai
Groningen, The Netherlands
75TS
*************************
Kai,
I recently had a similar problem on my 164 that I'd been chasing for quite some time.
First, check carefully for intake air leaks -- I'm not familiar with the TS engine, but I
assume it has a large rubber intake hose -- these are prone to cracks. Check all other
vacuum lines as well. My car ended up having no leaks, but a lean mixture -- put it on an
exhaust gas analyzer and adjusted the basic mixture at the air flow meter to get it right.
No more bouncy idle! Yes, this is why I have a new idle air controller for sale, folks.
From: Robert Nash
Subject: RE : 164 idle RPM
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:58:41 +0100
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:05:05 +1200
From: "Matthew Dooher"
I've got a 164 V6 3.0 1989 and I had the same problem. That occassionally the car
would idle 2500rpm.
I trace it down to a bad loose connector under the bonnet. I don't know
the exact name for the connector :-(.
Looking at the engine from the front. Where the intact hose connects to
the inject manifold, just in front. I think it is a air temperature sensor,
bypass valve ?. It is held on by a metal clip. Rear right of the engine compartment.
If you take this off and clean it it should solve you problem.
Mine keeps falling off, a clumsy mechanic lost my clip that holds it on.
I keep meaning to get a new one !
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:57:25 +1000
From: Jeff Hanbury <j.hanbury@qut.edu.au>
Subject: re: 164 problems (3000rpm idle)
Re: our 164 which would immediately rev to 3000 after starting:
Thanks for all the suggestions. The problem turned out to be that the
nipple on the end of the throttle cable was not in its correct
position. We should have started with the simple things first :-)
The lesson must be to not assume the worst...
Thanks,
Jeff H
Brisbane, Australia
From: FredAlfa@aol.com
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 13:35:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: alfa-digest V4 #180
The idle speed device is located close to the firewall next to the oil
separator canister which is upright and has a hose going to it, the idle unit
is mounted horizontally and also has a hose and an electrical connector. To
read the code, engine off, ignition switch on, press the button on the left
side of the steering column for 3 seconds. Read the code which will flash
the "Check ENGINE" light a series of flashes such as 4-4-4-4 which means no
faults. 1-2-1-4 would be temp sensor not good etc. Let me know what you
read.
If you take the idle device out, wash the inner barrel with WD40 or similar
so it rotates smoothly and make sure the connector is clean and tight. Look
for any air leaks around the main air duct, should be absolutely none between
the air flow meter and throttle body.
Good luck, Fred Di Matteo Fort Myers, Florida
From: "smalcaid, (Capt Porter)"
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:42:49 -0700
Subject: 164 Jerking and Idle Update
Update on my erratically bouncing idle with the A/C on: I had done all
the things you could think of: cleaned all connections, used the magic
contact enhancer elixer, checked for intake air leaks, etc, etc. Finally
decided to try another idle air controller (IAC). Called up APE -- yup,
got one, but the UPS strike makes it hard to get it to me. So, drove
down on Saturday in the S. Why does everyone else always drive so dang
slow???
Anyway, put in the "new" IAC. Same problem. Crap. Tried another Motronic
ECU. Hmmm -- problem went away. Don't have $300 right now. Swapped ECUs
back. Hmmm -- can't get it to act up. Now what? Decided to try the "new"
ECU again, so I could either confirm or eliminate it for sure. Got it to
act up. Good! Not the ECU. Tried another a/c ECU. Same problem. Geez,
there's nothing left to change. Decided to try another IAC. Only other
one they had was from a late Spider -- same part number. This one
worked! Yesssss! So, I guess these things wear out and can't control
themselves.
Many thanks to Larry for letting me perform "swap-tronics," otherwise
I'd never have been able to eliminate certain components and find the
real culprit. They have lots of GTV6s and Milanos in there, and a couple
of GTVs just rolled in, too.
Al Porter
Sacramento
91 S
From: Tonywoodtw@aol.com
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:09:19 EST
Subject: Re: Idle speed 'hunts' with A/C on
In a message dated 26/01/98 01:41:38, Alvin writes:
<< ....on 91 164S (3.0), the idle hunts up and down, about 50%
of the time, only when the A/C compressor is engaged. Also, idle seems to
"stick" at around 2K when engine is first started, and lasts for a few
minutes, whether A/C is engaged or not. >>
More a problem with BMWs (which have a very similar set of mechanicals and
electronics) than Alfas, to judge from the stuff on the Internet.
If you do a search (I searched under 'automotive') under the keywords:
--- idle AND problem AND BMW AND A/C ----
there's lots from those who have resolved it.
eg http://cbsgi1.bu.edu/bmw/idle.html
From: Dave Hillman
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 09:47:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: 164 chips ( was re: Solo II )
Skip wrote...
> In a different vein, has anyone out there replaced the stock CPU
> "chip" with one of the higher performance aftermarket chips??
> What changes did you notice, if any, and did you have an
> opportunity to try it in competition??
>
> Thanks again for sharing your 164 stories. They have been
> greatly appreciated!
I have an aftermarket chip from Algar, in Pennsylvania in my '91 L.
( I believe they source their chips from Ricambi. ) You'll only notice
the difference if a) it bumps you into Street Prepared ;> or b) you can
actually use more than 5000rpm in 2nd or higher on the courses you run.
I never noticed it between the cones. I *did* notice it at Road
America and Gingerman, where I spent a lot of time above 4500... which is
where you *start* to feel the advanced timing.
--
David Hillman
1991 alfa romeo 164l | aroc, nma, scca
From: bjanesi@juno.com (Bradley J. Anesi)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:55:45 EST
Subject: Re:164B - S Upgrades
JLEEALFA@aol.com writes...
[ . . . ]
> While everything is out I am contemplating some other modifications. Do 164 S
>pistons and liners fit without any other modifications? Where can I get them since
>most catalogs I see advertise 3.0 pistons and liners for all except S?
You might want to try AR Ricambi.
>If I put S cams in do I have to make any other modifications to the valve train, such
>as new springs or spring shims?
You might want to try a new chip for your Motronic which is optimized for
the S cams. I know Dennis Black <(508) 966-3100> is just finishing up
the R&D on a 164 chip with this specific intent. Dennis could better
answer your other questions, or you might just want to have him do the
work. One thing he has run into with the 3 liter motors is a slight
misalignment of the valve guides with the seats, which can be remedied by
the installation of oversized seats.
From: arnt.aanensen@nodeco.no (Aanensen, Arnt)
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 9:15:55
Subject: 164 Chip Tuning
Resantly me and my father chip tuned our cars.
My fathers -92 164 ts was tested to give 104.5 KW (originally 105 KW).
This is a very good test result for a engine with 115.000km.
After the Chip replacement (KN filter) they tested the car again and now
there was 125.2 KW. The workshop that did this job didnt belive their
eyes so they did the test again, with the same result.
The car works fine. It runs much better and it's lower on fuel too.
The problem was climbing hills, now this is not a problem.
So... then it was my turn.
There was a problem to test my car in the machine, so ve had to do
roadtesting only. My V6 Turbo has 205 hk and after the chip tuning
and wastegate adjust i think there is about 260 hk. You can really feel
it (its like an airplane, very smooth and extremly strong).
This operation is really worth the money.
Arnt
93- 164 V6 Turbo
93- 164 Ts
From: nensen arnt
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 16:44:35 +0200
Subject: Re: Chip tuning
>Sounds interesting.
>What brand of chips did you fit? Or were they custom made?
>
I think the chip is named Superchips
Arnt
From: Robb100
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:19:11 EST
Subject: spider perf. chip
Satan Claus was kind enough to leave a performance chip under my tree on
Christmas day. I installed it the other day and wanted to let anyone who
cares know about it. The chip is made here in Florida by Total Performance
Software/Total Audi Performance. Their price is $225. AR Ricambi sells the
same chip for $185. Anyways, they claim a 14hp gain overall, @ 10hp at the
wheels. Installation was fairly easy. Remove the ECU and take it apart.
Separate the boards inside, pull out the OE plug and plug in the new one.
About 1 hour total. To me there is a noticable difference. (There should be
for that price) I can feel the power increase from 2500 rpm on up. Its not
all at the top, which is good. The car seems to run smoother as well below
2500. Passing on the highway comes easier as well. I must admit I am very
satisfied with it. The manufacturer gives a 7 day money back guarantee on the
chip, so if you dont like it you can send it back. They also make chips for
the 164.
Rob Murphy
90 Spider Veloce
Coral Springs, FL
From: "Rich Wagner"
Subject: Re: Why You Might Want to Re-chip a 164
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:15:37 -0600
Steve wrote:
>One trade-off: most engine-management systems try to keep the car at
"stoich"
>all the time, except perhaps for cold-starts and WOT accellerations.
That's not correct, Steve. I don't know of a single closed-loop,
production injection system that isn't designed to run of peak when
in closed-loop mode. In open loop mode, most are designed to come close to
peak. There are shortcomings in some designs, largely in their ability to
handle transients. The L-Jetronic system, for example, runs VERY lean of
peak on acceleration (rich on deceleration) due to the inherent lag of the
mechanical AFM.
>Running at 14.7:1 air:fuel mix gives the best emissions performance, but a
richer mix
>will give you better power (but you get CO and HC pollution and ruin the
>catalytic converter shortly) and a leaner mix will give you better fuel
economy
>(but you get NOx pollution and eventually harm the valves). The lambda
sensor
>usually has its way with the mixture and keeps it very close to stoich.
No. Running at peak (stoich) gives the highest temperatures, and greatest
power. Running lean of peak improves emissions, at the expense of power
and low RPM driveability. Running rich of peak increases HC and CO
emissions, and also sacrifices power. NOx production is largely a function
of compression ratio.
Robert:
The injection system on your 164 has two modes of operation: open-loop, and
closed-loop. In the closed-loop mode, the system uses mixture feedback
provided by the "lambda", or O2 sensor, to keep the mixture just on the
lean side of peak. In this mode, it actually ignores the "map" that it
contains in its memory, setting the engine's mixture through the error
measured by the lambda sensor. The system goes into this mode when the
engine is warm, the O2 sensor is up to temperature, and the engine dynamics
are low--steady speed, or light acceleration/deceleration. Under
conditions of heavy dynamics--hard acceleration, for example--the system
drops out of closed-loop mode, and into open-loop mode. In this mode, it
sets the mixture through its "map". The map is essentially a fuel delivery
schedule based upon RPM and intake flow. Alfa designed their schedule to
provide a balance of power, driveabillity, and emissions. A third party
can redesign the schedule to provide more power, at the expense of
emissions and driveability. A third-party "chip" can increase power under
acceleration, but don't expect a huge difference. As Steve says, Alfa's
racing chips would probably be the best, if you could get your hands on
them. Since there is a balance at stake here, you may notice "holes" in
the performance or driveability of your car after putting in a new chip.
The ability to strike a good balance is totally in the hands of the guy who
comes up with the schedule. Being that Alfa spent millions of dollars and
thousands of hours of test time to develop their schedules, don't expect to
get the same driveability or balance of power thruoghout the RPM range when
switching to an aftermarket chip. No matter how good the third party
claims to be, they haven't spent the same amount of time testing and
refining their product.
From: "Peter C. Griffith"
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:46:26 -0500
Subject: 164 rear muffler
My rear muffler on the '95 164LS is starting to get rust perforations.
Bob Little (ARDONA) suggested that I simply replace the muffler with a
straight pipe. He says there's a nice exhaust note improvement without
a great increase in noise, and of course a little less backpressure.
Anyone else tried this? Comments?
Peter Griffith
'95 164LS
From: "Anthony D. Berarducci"
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:26:58 +0000
Subject: Re: alfa-digest V4 #176
Getting back to the on Stebro Exhaust. I have a 91 S with the full free
flow system, the cat. was removed. Also, I have installed a K&N Filter
to enhance breathing. The exhaust offers great performance
improvements. The car seems so much looser, in a good way, in the
higher RPM's. The sound is a litte deeper, almost a growl. It also
seemed to improve my low end torque.
There was one minor problem. The system had to be slightly modified to
fit. Andy, from Stebro has said this never happened before and I
believe him. He did provide good support. Luckily, I have a great
mechanic who reconfigured the system to fit. (Minor, but none the less
it didn't bolt right on) I am very happy with the system and rec. it.
From: Brett Melancon
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 07:57:34 -0400
Subject: 164 exhaust
In response to Chris' question about 164 exhaust...
I replaced my stock L rear section with one from an S. Perfect bolt on
swap. It has a slightly mellower tone and "burbble", very nice in my
opinion.
--
Brett Melancon
East Tennessee Italian Car Club, President
Knoxville, Tennessee
91 Alfa Romeo 164L (hauler)
From: "Bill Gehring"
Date: 9 Apr 1997 16:16:59 -0700
Subject: None
RE: 164 Exhaust
Just a week ago I put a STEBRO system on my 164. It is flow through,
guaranteed for life, and isn't much louder than stock. It has a nice burble
though. My experience with ANSA has always been short because they haven't
lasted long and longevity of stock systems, even among the local dealers is a
joke. The guys at Stebro have a lot of pride in their product and are very
accessible. I even have have their E-mail address if you want it.
Bill Gehring
91 164L
From: Taylor00@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 00:31:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Stebro Exhaust for 164S (1991)
On 05/01/97 16:04:50 you wrote:
>
>Greetings Taylor,
>
>I have a 1991 164S myself and have began replacing the Exhaust system. I
>was under the impression that Stebro did not make systems for 164 S's, am I
>wrong. Does it come complete with middle and rear muflers?
>
Vasco:
Thanks for the post; sorry for the delay. I did in fact purchase the Stebro system, middle and
rear. It was approximately $400 US if I recall. I also bought the stainless steel hangers. My
mechanic put it on. Labor was exactly 1 hour.
It looks very nice. I got the 3" oval tip. They will circle cut it if your request, no extra
charge. I liked the oval and stayed with it. I am pleased with the overall result.
Having had a rusted out muffler before the install I was unsure what to expect. It is *very*
quiet, which I had *not* expected; I expected something more to the tune of the Anza mufflers.
I anticipate it sounds quite a lot like stock. At low idle there is some throaty rumbling but
it is very mild. It looks quite nice; the 3" oval fills up the tail section nicely.
Stebro's service was very nice. I spoke with Dan I believe in customer service. They were
running behind on production and were several days late shipping. They upgraded the shipping
rate without charge to me and provided the UPS tracking number so I could track in via the
internet. They were very nice.
Good luck with your decision.
M. Taylor Smith
Deerfield, IL, USA
From: chris.robyn@ucop.edu (Chris Robyn)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:21:07 -0800
Subject: 164 Stebro rear exhaust installation
Well, I wish I could say this was a DIY job, but I left the new Stebro SS
rear section with my capable mechanic for installation. It went on with no
problem at all, but only after it was on the car did I realize that I was
less than happy with it. For starters, aesthetically speaking, the
tailpipe comes out too low, i.e., there is a bit too much clearance between
the top of the pipe and the outline of the rear cutout. It also sits too
far to the left, where ideally it should come out smack dab in the middle
of the cutout, (or at least close to it). We tried playing around with the
donut hangers and bending the tabs on the underbody accordingly, but
ideally you'd need a blowtorch to re-position the SS tabs on the muffler
itself. New, tight donut hangers may enable the muffler to sit a bit
higher than it does now, but we're talking about removing at least 3/4" of
extra clearance, plus there is still the problem of centering the tailpipe
within the cutout, irrespective of height. Admittedly, this is minor gripe
and I'm sure this is a quality product that I'll probably end up liking,
but it seems to me that it's far from a perfect fit, anyway.
If anyone out there has done this installation, I'd like to hear from you
with some possible suggestions as to how I can get this thing to at least
fill out the exhaust cutout with some aesthetic appeal!
Chris Robyn
Berkeley, CA
'84 GTV-6
'91 168
From: Ken Stevenson
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:52:24 -0500
Subject: Re: 164 Stebro rear exhaust installation
How about loosen the three mounting bolts to the center section? Adjust
the tailpipe end, then retighten the three mounting bolts. There should
be enough slotting to allow for adjustment in this manner. If not,
loosen the center section at the converter as well. Move the tail
section into place, then tighten bolts.
>For starters, aesthetically speaking, the tailpipe comes out too low, >i.e., there is a bit too much clearance between the top of the pipe and >the outline of the rear cutout. It also sits too far to the left, >where ideally it should come out smack dab in the middle of the cutout, >(or at least close to it).
From: JALFAjr@aol.com
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 12:08:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 164 Strut Boots/Stebro exhaust
...
On a second note, just finished installing the Stebro center exhaust section
on the 164. This is a quality unit, came with new hangers, new stainless
bolts/washers/lock washers/nuts, and a gasket. Only problem was the holes in
the gasket were not spaced correctly (too far from center of gasket). Car
sounds good, but hard to compare it to stock, as I have had a big hole (with
muffer bandage, paste, etc filling) in the center section since running over
a clump of ice this past winter, which needless to say had a significant
impact on the volume (and location) of the exhaust sound.
John Justus
91 164S
From: JALFAjr@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 00:39:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Stebro Exhaust
...
My second experience was last weekend when I helped a friend put center and
rear sections on his 164L. Except for the welded on bolt at the cat
(obviously not Stebro's fault), this was also a breeze. The sections fit,
the gasket I got for my 164S was the right size for the single pipe on the
164L so we used it, and the stainless steel tip looks good. His car sounded
good also.
I have had muffler shops do work on my 1750 several times in the past, but I
always stayed and watched them do it, as they really "ain't never seen one of
them cars before", so you have to give them the benefit of your knowledge of
some of the peculiar Alfa ways, which usually are better than the
alternatives.
From: RBoniface@aol.com
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 22:01:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 164 power regained (not Brad's)
A while back I had posted to the Digest my concern over my 164s
lack of power after testing with a GTech on board "dyno". Despite
numerous launch attempts, I couldn't get a reading higher than 138 BHP
at the wheels (about 150-155 at the crank I assume).
A year and a half ago my tailpipe grew a rust hole in it and I saw this
as a perfect opportunity to upgrade to a higher flowing unit. Thinking that
I'd outsmart those aftermarket guys, I had a friend build me an inexpensive
tailpipe with a cool 3.5 inch tip. He bent a piece of pipe for me and welded
a small resonator into the location of the original muffler. The resonator
was a straight through design (you could see right through from end to
end) so I assumed it must be about as low restriction as possible. It was
nice and throaty sounding down low but at high revs it would whoosh like
a cop car. I certainly didn't think that this could be due to excessive
backpressure since the resonator was so open that you could roll a tennis
ball through it. I started to think that maybe he installed it backwards
and that the resonator barbs were pointing upstream.
Thankfully, the hanger rusted and broke off necessitating the installation
of a new pipe. This time I dropped the car off at Watson Engineering in
Taylor, MI and had them build me a stainless unit. They had built my
GTV6 racecar system a few years back and I was VERY happy with the
results. Anyway, they built a 2.25 inch stainless pipe with a small Dynomax
muffler and mated it up to my cool chrome tip. When I picked it up I wasn't
really expecting any improvement especially since the car was now
quieter than before. I was wrong. This thing goes like stink! It is not my
imagination either since in gear acceleration times are vastly improved.
Also, I could never hear any induction noise before even after fitment of a
K&N filter but now there is a most delightful wail from under the hood.
I haven't GTeched it yet but I think it's gained a good 25-30 BHP over the
previous readings.
The moral of the story, as you may have already guessed, is that you get
exactly what you pay for.
Bob Boniface
91 164L ( Still picking hunks of ripped asphalt out of wheel wells)
From: "Mark F. Domby"
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 01:35:04 -0500
Subject: STEBRO finally installed...
I finally got the Stebro unit fitted onto my 91 164 S. The biggest
difference I notice is in sound and looks. I opted for the twin tip pipes
that look like the OEM tips for an S exhaust, except they are HUGE and stick
out of the rear about three inches. It took about a day to get used to, and
now the OEM unit looks wimpy in comparison. The resonator boxes are very
simple in design, and they are simply two flat end pieces welded to the
main body which is curved at the corners. The welds have already oxidized a
bit, but Stebro assured me that would not be a problem. They told me only
one unit had been sent back for fixing/replacement.
Performance wise, I have noticed an opening up of the revs at higher rpm.
The performance gains aren't blinding, but are noticeable if you drive the
car hard at various speeds/rpm. I DO NOT have the cat. replacement. The
Stebro man (I forget his name) said that replacing the cat. would give a lot
bigger gains in performance and sound.
Complaints? The dealer said one of the slip joints didn't fit as snug as
possible, leaving a small leak, which form fitted and fixed itself whithin a
couple of days.
As a plus (no functional complaint), the guys at Stebro re-reouted my
package and put up with a hell of a headache from UPS b/c of it, so they're
pretty good guys I would say.
The price is a little steep, but well worth it if you go all the way and get
the cat. replacement, barring approval from your dealer and state laws, etc.
North Carolina state law prohibits any dealer from removing a cat. unless
it's being replaced with a new one, so I have to find a good independent
mechanic who's willing to do the work- I've also gotta come up with the
bucks to buy the thing first. Maybe this summer it'll get done.
Overall, I love it and would so far recommend it.
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 98 18:53:23 +0100
From:
Subject: Stebro Exaust System
I checked Stebro out with several members of the digest, thanks Dave and
Brad, and just put the system on my 164L. I replaced from the cat. back
and it's great. Excellent quality, price, service and SOUND. I was
worried about the sound at highway speeds. I didn't want that constant
noise I have experienced in some other cars with HP exaust. The sound is
great and it all comes out the 3" oval tip like it should. Thanks again
to those who offered advice. Add disclaimer here.
G. Emerson
83 Spider
91 164L
95 Caprice(I know you all want one of these)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:18:39 -0800
From: "Rich Lasner"
Subject: Re: 164 Exhaust Sounds
Taylor wrote: I need some Alfisti advice re: my 91 164S. After 2 years with
a nice Stebro exhaust (center and rear) I have decided I want to change the
sound of my exhaust. I am bored with the Stebro! It is so polite.
Who's done something interesting here on this issue? Any good or bad
experiences? Any thoughts?
Thanks in advance! Clearly a second childhood issue...
Taylor- I have a 92 164S with a straight pipe where the middle muffler was
and a stock rear muffler. The sound is dark and burbly at idle and very fat
and ripping at speed. The volume is just slightly louder than stock. Not
obnoxious at all. The former owner did this mod when the middle muffler gave
out (I assume). The only unfortunate part is the middle pipe is welded to
the stock rear muffler's pipe, so I'll need a new middle pipe made when the
rust spots in the rear muffler eat through. I've had two other 164Ss with
the stock setup, and really like the sound of the system with the middle
muffler removed.
Rich Lasner
92 164S
Mill Valley CA
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 96 10:14:12 -0400
To: "Colin Verrilli"
From: andypet@magi.com (Andreas Petschenig)
Subject: Re: Alfa headers
Delivery-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 96 08:00:43 -0500
HI COLIN,
I HOPE THE SS HEADERS FOR THE 164 AND THE GTV6 WILL BE AVAILABLE IN MARCH 1997.
FOR STEBRO : ANDY PETSCHENIG E-Mail: andypet@magi.com
Tel: CANADA-613-489-0272
Fax: CANADA-613-692-0405
From: bjanesi@juno.com (Bradley J. Anesi)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:56:09 EST
Subject: 164 Mod's - Cams, Headers, ECU -Reply
RICHARD SEOW writes...
>Has anyone yet modified a 164L(3.0 V6) with AUTODELTA cams. Who sells
>headers for this car, also where is the Engine Management Computer
>located in this car.
Richard- I don't know of anyone who has put the Autodelta cams in; over
here (U.S.), the 164S cams are the most common cam upgrade (this is what
I did). The only headers CURRENTLY available for the 164 V6 are from
Ricambi/Shankle. Most feedback has been lousy about the build quality of
these, but I don't have any first-hand experience. Stebro tells me they
are FINALLY close to having stainless steel headers available for the 164
(this is what I've been holding out for). The Motronic ECU is located
centrally beneath the dash (close to the floor). Removal of the carpeted
trim on the passenger side will allow easy access.
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:54:48 EST
From: MAXLTV@aol.com
Subject: Exhaust Sounds
Instead of replacing the exhaust system, you may wnat to consider adding
Stebro's new headers just designed for the 164. The first set, I understand,
was jus produced. Supposedly you can expect at least a 10% power gain (with
the cat in place) and an increase in sound.
From: jscutti@ultranet.com (Jim Scutti)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 22:14:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 164 K&N upgrades, a-d V3 #278
In a-d V3 #278, Brad Anesi wrote, in reply to John (164 Headlights - Reply):
>>also for a couple of hp try removing the airbox and using a k & n cone
>>filter. it doesn't take much work just match up the bolts and a little metal
>>work the sound is there and dynomax 2 1/2 all the back keeps nasty
>>audi a4's away
>I've done similar upgrades - did you also make a mounting plate from the
>air meter intake bolted down to the (now vacant) bolt holes for the air
>box?
I may not be the only person interested in this upgrade. How did you adapt
the square opening of the Airflow meter to the round filter? Home brewed or
aftermarket? Any other details you'd like to share?
From: Brad Anesi
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 07:46:59 -0700
Subject: 164 K&N Upgrade ...actually MSDS
jscutti@ultranet.com (Jim Scutti) wrote...
>I may not be the only person interested in this upgrade. How did you
>adapt the square opening of the Airflow meter to the round filter? Home
>brewed or aftermarket? Any other details you'd like to share?
MSDS (818) 453-8823 supplied the adapter and conical filter ($109). My
Dad fabricated the sheet metal to support the air meter ...a function the
air-box previously provided. I suppose I could convince him to make
some more for $25 or so if anyone's interested.
Hope this helps,
Brad
'91 164B
From: TESTUT
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:35:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: K&N Air Filters and the 164
Recently, I asked on this list about the feasibility of ordering
a K&N Air Filter to replace the stock 164 air filter. After
receiving no responses from my fellow Alfa-Digest readers, I
contacted K&N directly and was told that there is such a filter
and its part number is 33-2645. This filter is a replacement for
the stock air filter, so no modification of the air intake is
necessary.
Skip
'91 164 B
USA
From: Alan Lambert
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:25:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: 164 K & N
On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 owner-alfa-digest@mailgate.wizvax.net wrote:
> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:35:44 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: K&N Air Filters and the 164
>
NO, NO, NO!-----I *did* reply--to tell you that the K&N filter did not
fit. The problem is that the edge "rubber" on the K&N is a hard plastic,
and too thick. You can't get the airbox cover snaps to close. I took it
back. They took it back. You should check with them to see if the problem
has been re-engineered first. ( If so, let me know, and I'll buy one.)
From: Alp Berker
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:43:57 +0300
Subject: K&N Alternative
Dear Alfisti,
I'm reading that some of you are looking for K&N filters for your model
and can't find the ones you need.
Last January I found "JR Filters" in the Autosport 97 show in
Birmingham. The filters are Weber UK approved and they are very similar
in shape and feel to K&N's. The only difference K&N is using a red
colored oil, JR is using blue. In fact one vendor told me that the owner
of JR is an ex-K&N guy.
They have bolt-on filters for all sort of Weber, Solex and Dellorto
carbs.
Air induction kits for 164 TS , 75 turbo and GTV6
Replacement filters for standard air box for 155TS, 33, 75, GTV6, Sud
Sprint, Sud, Sprint, Veloce
They have models for other types also.
just as an example for 155 replacement filter K&N costs 33,81 sterling
where JR costs 29.65 sterling.
for webers bolt-on K&N costs 39.70 sterling per carb, where JR costs
35.10 sterling per carb.
You can order JR Filters or K&N's thru Demon Tweeks in UK,
phone : +44-1978-664466
fax: +44-1978-664467
Important: Do your self a favour and order the Demon Tweeks catalog
regardless. It makes great reading in the office, bathroom, bed, etc.
No, I'm not working for K&N, JR or Demon Tweeks. I just want the best at
a good price.
From: TESTUT
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 07:26:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 164s & K&N air filters
Mark asked about the rev limit on a 164S and availability of K&N air filters
for the same vehicle.
I can't answer the question about the redline of the 164S, but as for
the most (or "a most") reasonable source for K&N air filters for 164s,
may I suggest Performance International (e-mail: franzke@ibm.net or
800-522-1672). I found their service good and their prices excellent
when I bought a K&N filter for my 164 this January.
Not a testimonial and I have no connections to Performance Int'l, but
just thought I'd offer an opinion.
Skip
1991 164 Base
USA
From: "Ramzi Gillespie"
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 20:41:28 +0000
Subject: K&N
I am using a K&N in my 164L. I didnt notice much of an improvement
im performance but it sure is nice knowing that I never have to
purchase a new filter again - just keep this one clean. I also
noticed that they (like most K&Ns that I've purchased) are a snug
fit.
Ramzi
1991 Alfa Romeo 164L
From: RBoniface@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 21:26:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: 164 K&N airfilter
In a message dated 97-04-27 23:17:06 EDT, you write:
<< 1) where's the best place to get a K&N for my '91 164S? >>
Last year I called K&N direct to find a listing for my 164. They gave
me the part number and a price of $79 . However, they told me that
I had to order through one of the independent outlets and recommended
ASAP ( Automotive Specialty Accessory Parts ) in Nevada (Reno I
think). ASAP is an American iron aftermarket mail order house not
unlike Summit Racing so I was skeptical about the usefulness of
this lead. Well, I called, they had it, they sent it. Price? $45.00.
Go figure.
From: Skip Testut
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:00:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 164L Air Filter
Bob asked
>Does anyone have experience using an air filter from K&N. Supposedly
>they never need replacing, just need to be cleaned once every 30k miles
>or so. They are also supposed to increase power. Are there other air
>filters that are better?
I've used a K&N air filter (stock replacement size) in my 1991 164B since early
in 1997. The only noticeable performance difference was a slight (about 2 mpg)
improvement in gas mileage. I also noticed that the K&N filter was a little
more difficult to squeeze into the stock air filter box than a standard
replacement filter. Otherwise, I have no complaints and would consider buying
K&N filters for any car.
From: Mark Jones
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:38:00 -0500
Subject: 164 Air Filter Reply
Bob Asked:
>Does anyone have experience using an air filter from K&N. Supposedly
>they never need replacing, just need to be cleaned once every 30k miles
>or so. They are also supposed to increase power. Are there other air
>filters that are better?
Yes Bob, The K&N filters do increase power. I have a K&N filet obtained
from Imparts on my '91 164S and noticed a significant increase at higher
RPMs. I have installed a cleanable, reusable Sprint filter available
from Alfa Ricambi on my '92 164L. I noticed less of an increse with the
Sprint filter on my L. I suspect the S engine is just more cabable of
appreciating the increased flow, than the L. Either one will do you
well. The Sprint filter is a man made fiber working on the
electrostatic attraction principle, while the K&N works with oil on a
cotton gauze fabric. The Sprint filter is vacuumed clean, the K&N is
washed, dried and reoiled.
My personal opinion, the L won't gain much more power from either filter
if you have an automatic trans. If you have a 5spd, the K&N might give
you a bit more flow, but the cleaning is more of a hassle. Both will
save you $ in the long run, in lieu of continually replacing the stock
paper filters.
From: LoweJacks
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:46:19 EST
Subject: Re: alfa-digest V5 #270
In a message dated 12/16/97 8:19:41 PM GMT, you write:
<< Fellow Alfisti,
Does anyone have experience using an air filter from K&N. Supposedly
they never need replacing, just need to be cleaned once every 30k miles
or so. They are also supposed to increase power. Are there other air
filters that are better?
Thanks
Bob 164L >>
I have had a K&N filter on my 164 TS for about a year, and previous to that on
a E28 BMW 5 series. There is no big increase in power, but does run better at
higher revs. It also works out cheaper, compared to buying new OE filters in
the long run.
Hope this helps
From: eax@juno.com (Eugenios A Christodoulou)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:56:17 EDT
Subject: Clonk in rear suspension 75/Milano REPLY
Anders Million writes:
>>I hava a 75TSP 1990 which gives "clonk"-sounding noises from the rear
suspension when I drive over road bumps or pot holes.<<
I had the exact strange "clonk" noise on my 164 and I also thought it was
the suspension. I was so sure of it, I was ready to replace the rear
struts. Eventually I discovered that the rubber hangers of the middle
section of my exhaust pipe where broke and on the slidest bump the
exhaust would hit on the suspension arm. Just grab your tail pipe and
shake it. If that is the problem you will hear the "clonk".
Eugenios Christodoulou
91 164 base
91 164 L
From: eax@juno.com (Eugenios A Christodoulou)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:22:43 +0100
Subject: Gas fumes smell/ Miata is the MX5 in Europe
Jason Hue wrote :
>>i requested trouble shooting answers to gas fumes in my 164 a few months
> ago and was advised to check for a crimped hose in the rear filler area.
> i tried to find the hose but was not able to locate the problem. <<
The same problem happen to me recently. After a lot of sniffing around
the car I pin pointed the smell coming from the trunk area. I pulled the
carpet back and I found the fuel vapor separator, I believe is called,
which is located against the back seat on the passenger side. I tighten
all hoses and so far it seems the smell went away.
From: Jon
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 23:25:45 +0100
Subject: 164 gas fumes
Jason Hui said:
- ...whenever i open the windows, or the sunroof there is an
- overwelming smell of gas in the passenger compartment.
- to get rid of the smell, i would have to close all openings
- and endure the smell for about a few minutes for the fumes
- to subside.
I had bad gas fumes in mine a while back, after the fuel
pump was replaced (wouldn't start for ages - fuel pressure
wasn't holding overnight. Pump was full of crap).
I can't find the paperwork on this one, but basically the
seal between the new fuel pump and the tank wasn't in place
properly. Instant fuel leak, characterised by fuel dripping
off the bottom of the tank. Not good.
This would match up with your smelling gas through the windows.
Go for a spin, then stop when you can smell gas, and look under
the back end of the car (just in front of the back wheels).
At least they fixed it for free... then fixed it again when
the leak didn't stop.
I know I love my car. If I didn't, I'd have pushed it off a
cliff by now...
Jon Herbert
Ludgershall, Wilts, UK.
'89 164 3.0 V6
From: RBoniface@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:33:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: 164 gas smell
In a message dated 97-09-11 04:27:17 EDT, you write:
<< I'm trying to locate 164 owners, particularly folks who have had
problems with that pesky gasoline smell. Any ideas on how I could
efficiently find them?" >>
I'm a 164 owner who has had the same problem. A recall notice said
that it was due to a leaky fuel filler pipe whose connections tend to
degrade over time. The updated unit was installed and the problem
went away.
Bob Boniface
91 164L
From: Carguymb@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:33:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: 164 Gas smell
Just a quick thought, but US model '91-'93 164's were recalled to replace the
fuel filler cap, and the pipe from the filler to the tank. Check to make
sure the recall was done first.
On the old parts the fold down rubber flap that covers the gas cap has a
solid "tit" that pushes over the raised knob (don'tcha love this sexy
stuff....?) in the centre of the gas cap. The updated ones have a hole in
the middle of the flap that secures the flap to the gas cap in a similar
fashion.
From: Bernie & Diana Bennett
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:59:41 -0500
Subject: 164 fuel smells
Wade Bartlett and Ken Stevenson wrote:
> I'm trying to locate 164 owners, particularly folks who have had
> problems with that pesky gasoline smell. Any ideas on how I could
> efficiently find them?
Yes, I once had fuel vapor smell, it has been repaired. Three sources
accounted for my 164's fuel vapor leak. Initially, I replaced the fuel
filler hose prior to the recall. Next, I found that the top of the
vapor cannister was broken in front of the LF (anteriore sinistro) wheel
well. Finally, when looking at the fuel tank cover plate, I found the
bolts holding it on were loose and the plate itself was moist with fuel.
.......
Also (If you had this you probably noticed) we had fuel dripping from
the hoses at the fuel rails; they were five years old an hard, new hoses
and tight clamps solved this one.
Now I believe I am smelling raw fuel and it may be the catalyst
previously mentioned in the above post.
From: Joe Gottlieb
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:29:24 +1000
Subject: Re: Alfa 164 Fuel Leaks (was:Searching For 164 Owners
About 6-12 months after buying my 164 (1989) there was a recall relating to
the stainless steel hose clamps used on the fuel lines. Up till that time I
had been continually getting fuel smell and had actually replaced two clamps
myself. The dealer replaced all the ss clips with standard screw on hose
clamps, no problem since.
It could be worth checking
________________________________________________________________________
Joe Gottlieb firebird@axis.jeack.com.au
Melbourne, Australia
From: tonywood@bailiwick.win-uk.net (Tony Wood)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:46:03
Subject: Re: 164 fuel smell (V5 #57)
>I'm trying to locate 164 owners, particularly folks who have had problems
>with that pesky gasoline smell. Any ideas on how I could efficiently find
>them?
>Any help appreciated. Thanks!
>WADE BARTLETT
>email wbartlett@ttlc.net
>homepage http://ttlc.net/~wbartlett
>
Wade
When this happened to me, it was because the flexible fuel links
under the bonnet (hood) had perished, and a very fine spray of fuel
(!) was apparent across the camboxes. Check for fine cracks and
replace the lot. Brad reckons you can replace the difficult one (on
the vertical pipe at back left of emginebay when you are looking in
from front of car) from below, but thus far that one on mine has been
OK.
From: bjanesi@juno.com (Bradley J. Anesi)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:44:39 EDT
Subject: Re: 164 Fuel Hose
tonywood@bailiwick.win-uk.net (Tony Wood) writes...
>Brad reckons you can replace the difficult one (on the vertical pipe at
back left of >emginebay when you are looking in from front of car) from
below, but thus far that >one on mine has been OK.
Allow me to retract my previous advise to Tony. At the time, I thought
he was referring to the hoses back by the fuel filter. The vertical
hoses mentioned above are virtually impossible to replace with the motor
fully in the car. With the heads off however, these hoses are a 10
minute job to replace. It's quite amazing how 10 hour jobs are
transformed into 10 minute jobs once the heads are removed on this car.
Brad Anesi
'91 Project 164Q 5-speed (with new 4-ply silicone fuel hose installed)
From: Marcantonio Sandro
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:52:44 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: 164 Gas Smell
Dear Group.
As I was reading the prognosis from several digesters about the fuel smell
problem in 164's I noticed that I had a source of the smell that was
different than them all. When my 164S started to reek of gas I went
around searching in the trunk and ripped out all of the carpeting. I then
removed the plastic cover that protects the fuel tank level sending unit
and noticed that air was bubling our of the seal around the allen bolts.
I then proceeded to tighten all of the little allen bolts and then gave it
a good coating of silicone. After that the smell was gone. I believe the
smell is amplified here becaues the passageway for the skii's is right
about this area and the odor goes through the passageway into the cabin.
1991 164S
From: sande007@mc.duke.edu
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 164 gas fumes
I recently noted gas fumes in my 164LS, which turned out to be due to
a leak from the rubber hose that connects the 2 injector rails at the
driver's side of the engine. With the engine running, fuel could be
seen dripping from the bottom of the hose. Repair consisted of
replacing the hose connectors with worm-drive connectors and
tightening firmly.
Don Sanders
From: Bernie & Diana Bennett
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:25:30 -0600
Subject: 164 fuel smell
------------------------------
From: Fred Di Matteo
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:11:51 -0500
Subject: 164 fuel odors inside while driving
Hi y'all, wondering if anyone out there are having 164 fuel vapor odors
that are still bugging you, and not fixed. Fred Di Matteo AROC Tech
Advisor, Fort Myers, Florida
------------------------------
Fred,
We did have a problem 'till last week. Our repair shop Italian Motor
Service, Austin found a crack around a 'tab' on the rear fuel rail.
They took it off and had it welded/braized or whatever the process was.
Smell is gone.
From: Tonywoodtw
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 02:07:17 EST
Subject: Re: 164 fuel odors inside while driving
In a message dated 14/01/98 02:59:19, you write:
<< ... wondering if anyone out there are having 164 fuel vapor odors
that are still bugging you, and not fixed. Fred Di Matteo AROC Tech
Advisor >>
Mine happened a couple of years ago, when we were miles from home. Turned out
to be a pin-hole in one of the hoses to the injectors rail, and it was
emitting a fine spray! Fortunately hole was near the end of the hose, so I
cut off an inch to get home, then replaced the lot (except the one I can't
reach, linking the vertical metal pipes half-way down back corner under the
bonnet (hood)). Not posh red ones Brad-style, but we do things differently
here. :-)
From: Chip Denyko
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 06:34:13 -0700
Subject: RE:164 Fuel Odors
Tampa, FL
Several have been writing abotu the 164 fuel odors.
My better half has a very sensitive nose, and during
the first 3 years, we drove the dealer nuts on these.
We did find several places that had a problem
though. The first was the fuel rail hoses and those
were replaced. This smell was noticed at stops with
A/C on. Guess the A/C was drawing the air in to the
passenger compartment.
The second one we had was also when the sun
roof was open, and coming from the trunk, found
that when we stopped to put purchases in it. Turned
out that one was the hoses on the top of the tank.
They appeared OK as they sat there, but if you put
a little powder around them, the powder got wet.
When they were pulled off, they had cracks in them.
Replaced and problem solved.
My intent is to replace EVERY fuel line hose on all
my Alfa's. Don't trust that rubber!
Also found a bad fuel line hose on my 84 GTV6
recently in a tech session.
Change them - Change them all!
Chip Denyko
Tampa, FL
93 Spider Veloce
95 164 Quadrifoglio
84 GTV6 Maratona
From: sid_l_trest@amoco.com
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:30:42 -0600
Subject: Follow-up - 164L gas fumes
At long last I got all the gaskets that I needed. I spent all
afternoon on Sunday in the trunk (perfect size for a body). I replaced
the fuel pump gasket, fuel level gauge sender gasket, the "O" rings
for the 2 fuel supply and return lines on the top of the pump cover
plate. Since I was also have difficulty starting the car, I replaced
the notorious 2" externally braided hose under the pump cover that
connects to the copper coil. New screw type clamps were installed on
the vent tube on the top of the pump cover and on the smaller rubber
tube that goes to the air cannister. Tool advice - get a 4mm ball end
hex wrench, the longer the better.
So far, so good! The car starts much better (although no cracks were
ever detectable on the 2" braided line). I think that I got most of
the fume sources sealed. As with most problems like this that are
difficult to trace, I need to allow a bit of time to evaluate the
results.
Thanks to all that wrote with helpful advise!
Sid
91' 164L (Darth)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:33:56 -0600
From: "B. D. & Petei Zelazny"
Subject: Re: 164S Gas smells
Dave Westphal wrote:
> I just bought a '91 164S and I've filled it up twice. The gas
> fumes in the car are very strong, especially if I am going thru the
> gears with a lot of twists and turns in the road. I can't believe
> this is something ALFA has not addressed.
Dave,
Check inside the gas filler door for a sticker that says "Recall
96V-140" which indicates it has had the recall performed on the gas
filler neck.
Bet you don't have this sticker...immediately head for the nearest
Alfa Romeo dealer and demand the recall fix on the gas filler neck.
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:29:41 -0700 (MST)
From: Marcantonio Sandro
Subject: 164 Gas Smell.
On the gas smell, the biggest culprit in my experience as a mechanic over
the summer and in my dad's car was the sender in the trunk held in by 8 or
10 allen bolts. This sender has a small rubber gasket under it and for
some reason as the pressure builds in the tank, aka, hot rodding and such
and a full tank does not help either, gas finds its way out of the gasket
and accumulates quite deeply in the trunk subframe. What exasperates this
problem is that the ski passageway is right above the sender and the gas
fumes find their way right into the cabin. The best bet is to remove the
whole trunk carpeting and the plastic cover over the sender and try to
tighten up those allens. If that does not work, buy a new gasket and
generously silicon around the edges. Once the silicon smell leaves, 2
days or so, you will never smell gas again.
From: bjanesi@juno.com (Bradley J. Anesi)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:55:00 EDT
Subject: Re: Injector Cleaning
Jeremy Hill writes...
>I would like to clean up the injectors on my 85 GTV6, it's bound to need
it
>after 12 years. I believe doing this properly is a professional job,
>especially since you have to pretty much destroy the fuel rail, tune the
>injectors, then rebuild it. Anyone done it themselves?
Jeremy-
While my 164 was down I had the injectors cleaned, flow-tested, and
blue-printed by Marren Motor Sports (http://www.injector.com). Cost was
$23.75 / injector, which includes new O-rings. Marren gives you a before
& after report - pretty thoroughly shows the improvement. I'll
eventually write this up for the Alfa Owner, but publication is still a
few months away.
BTW, why are you under the impression that the fuel rail must be
destroyed to remove the injectors???
Brad Anesi
'91 Project 164Q 5-speed
From: "Mark W. Lachniet"
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:13:56 -0600
Subject: 164 Fuel Filter replacement
I finally got around to replacing the fuel filter on my '91' 164 b. At
85K it still had the original fuel filter in place (still had the
factory undercoating on it). I followed the Cardisc CD manual and it is
fairly straight forward. It does require a number of wrenches, 17mm,
19mm, and 22mm open end wrenches for the fuel lines and filter, plus an
8 mm pair to loosen the bracket holding the filter. The local parts
store had a filter in stock Fram G3747. The inlet and outlet are
different sizes which eliminates getting it in backwards. Space is
limited, I had to loosen the clamp to move the filter towards the back
of the car to get enough clearance to remove the front fuel line.
I used ramps to get enough clearance to work under the car, still very
tight. If you can get it on a lift it should be much easier.
On another note, I have the Bosch Micro edge wiper blades on the car,
but I have not been able to locate replacement blades (21"). I am told
they are only available as a complete arm, anybody know differently. It
seems a waste to replace the wiper arms twice a year.
Mark
1991 164 b Daily hauler.
From: "m.rafique"
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:50:13 -0000
Subject: Re: Fuel Consumption 164 2.0TS
In response to Nillson Anders' query
One problem I've diagnosed and now rectifed is that my car was running on
4 spark plugs and not 8. The leads were set in the wrong firing order.
Check this on your car by disabling each coil and running the engine
independently to each circuit.
Now to do more checks...any suggestions
Attif
91 164 TS
From: john cumming
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:36:58 -0500
Subject: high fuel consumption 164
A colleage of mine at work has had a similar
problem. After much trouble it was diagnosed as
a faulty lambda probe on the exhaust. This ment
that the car was running on 'enrichment' as the
chip thought that the cat had not warmed up.
After replacement his mpg increased considerably.
johnc
75 3.0 v6 cat (lowered and chipped)
Also see Delayed Start.
From: rodneygt@telapex.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:08:24 -0500
Subject: 91 164L cold start/stumble problems
> From: "Levi Strohmann"
> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:45:34 -0500
> Subject: 91 164L cold start/stumble problems
> 5. Car runs very rough when cold (I live in Rochester, NY). The symptoms
> are similar to when they replaced the O2 sensor. Car stalls at lights
> sometimes if I do not give it gas. Of course, every time I have brought it
> in it has been fine. Now, the car takes 7 to 8 cranks in the morning to
> start (I nearly gave up and called AAA today). I have checked the battery
> voltage, and it is over 12 volts. Further, I have tightened the infamous
> air boot. Today, I noticed that my headlights were dim until I stepped on
> the gas. Once the car warms up, the lights are bright while idling or
> moving. Thus, I disconnected the battery and made sure the ignition coil
> contacts were clean (how do you get the wire out of the socket?). I
> reassemble everything, connect the battery, and attempt to start the car.
> It takes a few cranks...it runs for about thirty seconds and then stalls.
> I start it up again and it acts like it wants to stall, but catches itself
> repeatedly, and stalls a minute and a half later. All this leads me to
> ask, what do people think the likely culprit is? The ignition coil, the
> spark plug cables, the distributor cap and rotor? In an ideal world, I
> would replace all of these parts, but seeing as how I will be sinking $300
> into the springs, it is holiday gift giving season, and I have loan
> payments on this beast, I cannot. I would like to catch this before it
> does not start and I have to pay for labor.
>
> Anyway, I love the car even though it may have the capacity to drain my
> wallet. The car has been impeccably maintained, so I am hoping to have
> better luck in the near future.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Steven Mindy
> 91 164L -- 76,000
>
Steven,
There is a very common problem with 164s. The symptoms are similar
to yours. I learned of the problem shortly after I bought a 164. I
learned of the repair procedure from Mr. Di Matteo and later, I found
some old digest clippings on the 164 Page.
What happens often is that the small (1/4" or 3/8", maybe) fuel hose
that forms the connection between the fuel pump and "cap" (in the trunk,
remove the floor carpet and the carpet that's behind the rear seats &
you'll see a large round lid-like object with an electrical connection &
some fuel lines - it's secured by 8-12 Allen screws) on the fuel tank
develops a slit in it. As such, your fuel pressure bleeds back into
your tank and not enough fuel is supplied to either start the car or
sometimes keep it running.
The way to test for this problem is to use an inline fuel gauge and
check to see if the press. drops after the car is turned off. The
press. should not drop. If the press. drops, the fuel press. is
bleeding back into the tank. If this happens, the most likely source
for the bleeding is the small rubber fuel line within your tank.
Many people spent a lot of money trying to fix this problem before
the actual culprit was discovered. Lots of people replaced the fuel
pump, logically deciding that a check valve had ceased to function. To
them, we owe thanks for eventually sorting out the problem. It was so
hard to determine that the fuel line was broken because Alfa used cloth
covered fuel line for this application (you couldn't see the slit due to
the cloth covering).
A simple way that I've not seen recommended but which would probably
indicate if your fuel system is losing its "prime" would be to loosen
the hose clamp holding the rubber fuel line to the fuel rail on the
passenger's side(U.S.) - if fuel squirts out, you have pressure - this
should only be done with a cold engine & disconnected battery. Also,
you might be able to tell if there is press. in the system by pinching
the aforementioned fuel line that supplies fuel to the rail between your
fingers. If you can compress it, it has no pressure in it.
If this turns out to be your problem, all you need to fix it is
about a dollars worth of fuel line, a couple of hours, a screwdriver,
the appropriate Allen wrench and some patience. All you have to do is
remove the fuel pump assembly from the tank, then remove and replace the
little slit hose. Don't let the preceeding sentence mislead you though;
it can be a very frustrating job to get the pump out and back in.
Hope this helps,
Rodney
McComb, Mississippi
From: rodneygt@telapex.com
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 17:48:16 -0500
Subject: 164 cutout on turns - reply
> ... The only problem I'm experiencing
> is if I,m running on a 1/4 tank of gas or less and make a hard turn or U-turn it will cutout for a
> second. It's not too much of a problem I just try to keep it full. But if any of you Guru's out
> there have a fix for this problem it would be greatly appreciated
>
> Curtiss Norheim
> 91 164L (black beauty)
> Huntsville, AL
>
Curtiss,
When I bought my 164 it suffered from the infamous leaky-in-tank
fuel line in which the car often did not have enough fuel pressure to
operate properly. It also had basically the same problem you describe.
I mention the first problem because I believe it is what led to the
second problem.
Apparently the PO and his mechanics had searched in vain for the
source of the poor running 164 and never found the slit fuel line within
the tank. However, they had come close to the problem when they
replaced the fuel pump.
I knew shortly after I got the car and started experiencing problems
that the fuel pump had at least been removed because a small piece of
metal in the trunk had been trimmed back above one of the hex screws
that mounts the cover to the fuel pump. Anyway, I believe that when
they put the fuel pump assembly back into the tank, they did not have it
properly seated on the bottom of the tank. While there was fuel in the
tank, the pump wasn't submerged in it and when I had less than 1/4 tank,
I would often stall briefly - just as you describe.
When I replaced the piece of fuel line in the tank, I removed the
entire pump assembly, cleaned it and made sure I reinstalled it
correctly.
Hope this helps,
Rodney G. Tidwell
McComb, Mississippi
From: "Rupert Kwok"
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:07:43 -1000
My 91 164L recently had a hard starting problem. It would take 3 or 4
cranks
before it could fire up. Thanks for the info on the Tech Notes web site.
I decided to check the infamous rubber hose inside the fuel pump. It was a
very tough job. After struggled for 3 hours to remove the pump and the
rubber hose, sure enough, there was a cut about 1 inch long in the middle
of the hose. The hose looked fine on the outside, I had to look inside of
the hose to find the cut. After replaced the hose and put everything back,
my 164 fired up happily. Thanks for the info, I saved myself at least
$200.
My 164 also had the overheat problem like everyone else. I tried
everything you guys recommended, that included changing or/and bypassing
the low speed fan resistor, using a lower temp sensor from VW. It still
overheat. Finally, I bought a solid state adjustable fan switch from Alfa
Heaven and yahoo! I can now set whatever temp I want to run my
164(currently at 175). The engine rev much smoother now. I highly
recommend this. But their installation instruction is very unclear, I have
to play around to get it right. For one thing, the instruction doesn't say
what Amp of fuse to use on the hot wire to the fan motor. I put a 40 Amp
fuse,
is it alright? So far everything seems fine.
My left steering rack boot starts leaking very slowly, should I change it
now or wait a little longer?
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 14:48:57 EDT
From:
Subject: 1991-164 no-start condition (bad ECU)
Hello Colin,
Many thanks for maintaining this helpful site. This may be useful to others: I
was stranded by a no spark ( but fuel ok-spark plugs wet) problem
that, after replacing the coil and crankshaft sensor, turned out to be
a bad Motronic ECU - 12 volts out of pin #1 down to 6 volts there & at
the coil). The cure was a used replacement from Alfa Parts Exchange, Hayward, CA.
The attached link (re:BMW's) indicates this may be a future problem for owners of
older 164's.
CAR ELECTRONIC SERVICES WEBSITE INDEX - ECU
This link also indicates that repairs to these ECU's may be practical.
If any others with this specific problem are able to swap ECU's as
a first diagnostic step, they may save a lot of work & time.
Cheers, Matt Fox