From: "Robert E. Woods"
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:22:57 -0500
Subject: 164 coolant replacement
As a follow up to Martin Bullen's advice on changing the oil in a 164, there are two coolant drain plugs in the 164's V6 engine, one on each side of the block. As the engine is installed transversely, the front drain plug is fairly easy to access. It is located just below the front exhaust manifold. Let the engine cool down, and then feel underneath the exhaust manifold for a bolt head (17mm diameter, if memory serves correct). When you've found the drain plug, use a box end wrench to loosen. Of course, coolant will begin to flow out of the opening, so be prepared to catch it.
The drain plug on the rear of the engine is rather difficult to access with the engine in the car.
When I replaced the coolant in my 164 last year, I also removed the lower radiator hose. There was a surprising amount of crap in the block (literally), and I had to flush the engine three times to clean it out.
Texaco has a new coolant that GM uses, which is supposed to prolong water pump life and the interval between coolant changes. I used it the last time I replaced coolant, and it has worked well so far.
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 96 10:23:21 -0600
From: Brad Anesi
Subject: 164L Temperature - Reply
Bill Marshall wrote...
>1. Concerning normal coolant temp range -
>The owner's manual says nothing about the normal temp range, when
>the fan should turn on, when the panel warning light comes on, etc.
>The shop manual says the fan turns on (slow speed) at 130 C (266 F)
>+/- some rather wide tolerance. This figure is considerably higher than
>normal operating temp (175 F) and represents quite a bit of additional
>thermal expansion of engine parts relative to that experienced between,
>say, 0 F and 175 F. My question: can this number be right?
Bill - this is absolutely not correct information. At 266 F' you are probably
boiling, even with a 50/50 antifreeze mixture. The 164 has a two-speed
fan - low speed should come on around 196 F', and hi-speed kicks in
around 205 F' (this is from memory, but I know these numbers are pretty
close to correct). Your low-speed thermistor probably isn't working (the
originals always fail) but I've found this doesn't change operating
temperature much, if at all. (DO fix this however, since it is designed to
come on whenever the A/C is activated).
Funny you should bring this issue up - I spent an hour in bumper-to-
bumper traffic on Sunday, and my temp' gauge was constantly just to the
right of the 212.5 F' marker. This is too damn hot in my opinion, so I'd be
very interested in mounting another (cockpit-controlled) electric fan
somewhere. Any thoughts/experiences out there on this?
>2. Power antenna mechanism -
Sorry, no help on this one other than to mention that the 164 antenna is
prone to failure. The common approach is lube early and often, and then
replace the entire unit when it fails - maybe there's a better (and
cheaper) after-market unit out there?
Regarding the battery disconnect, I always remove the battery ground
before working on anything electrical on this car. Do you really want to
diagnose failed Italian electrics if you don't have to?
Good Luck,
Brad
'91 164B
------------------
From: BANESI@novell.com (Brad Anesi)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 08:53:32 -0700
Subject: 164L Temperature -Reply
On 17 May, ken.stevenson@chrysalis.org wrote...
> What temperature does the 164 3.0 V-6 run at on a hot day?
That depends greatly on whether I'm stuck in traffic or on the highway.
On the highway the temperature doesn't get too much over 175 F'
(unless I get too much over 70 MPH). In heavy traffic, I've gotten the
temperature up over 212 F', but the high-speed fan seems to do a pretty
good job at keeping it from going any higher than that. Incidentally, the
164 has a low speed fan thermostat which is supposed to kick in around
190 F' (if I'm remembering correctly). Unfortunately, this part had a high
failure rate (mine is currently dead), and is probably not working on your
car. There is a kit from Alfa to fix this, or just re-wire the high-speed line.
Good luck with the Lancia 164 project.
Brad
'91 164B
------------------------
From: Bernie & Diana Bennett
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:17:13 -0500
Subject: Re-Post of 164S Cooling Question alfa-digest V4 #338
Taylor:
Save your money? You probably don't have a problem.
You wrote:
> My 1991 164S with 86K runs consistently between 212 and 231F. The low
> speed fan seems to come on consistently at about 170 and the high-speed
> at about 205 or so. Nonetheless the temp just keeps on creeping up
> there; on hot days it will hit 231 to 235 but will not go higher than
> that, even in bumper to bumper. The red light does not go on.
Sounds just like my 1991 164L (auto) (except ours got real hot driving
neighborhoods at Xtmas looking at holiday lights and once when we went
to the Great River Road Rally as workers and it was so cool we had to
turn the A-c off) (Once we got the fan working off the thermostat (in TX
it runs most of the time due to the A-c) we wondered the same thing as
your above paragraph. B.J. (Bob Johnson) of Italian Motor Service said
the engine was being cooled just fine and he used a digital thermometer
device pointed at the hottest place in the cooling system and the temp
was just fine about 25 degrees lower than indicated. Asked what to do
to keep us from being paranoid about overheating he added a resistor
pack (which dropped the temp 30-40 degrees. It needs adjustment reads a
bit too low)
> I've seen other posts that put the "normal operating temp" at between
> 175 and 212. The service director at West Suburban, local Alfa
> dealership in Chicago, said "normal" was the hash mark just to the left
> of 250 (which would be the 231 mark).
> I've had the water temp sender (sensor) replaced, with no change in
> behavior at all. Given the fan's operation I have *not* replaced the
> two relays for the fan cooling unit or the bypass power resistor on the
> upper back side of the fan shroud.
> Despite what the dealer said I think 231 is just too damn hot. Does
> anyone agree?
The question is what is he actual temp? Indicated is relative and as
they say your mileage may vary; but I've been convinced that the 164's
instruments may be only used as a guide. (oil presure guage too!) Is
this car new to you? Is this a change in its behavior; your first
spring/summer? If it has always acted this way, then don't worry. Look
for changes in behavior. For example, in my Milano after about 4 years
we noticed temp would climb going uphill on the interstate when driving
faster than 75 mph. Turned out the radiator was more than 2/3 clogged
and in our normal driving was just fine; but in bumper to bumper going
slow or with a load (climbing in the Appalachians at high speed) the
needle misbehaved (and the red indicator did light.) (Also as I
indicated above, an essentially good cooling system in the 164 had
strange behavior at low speed with the a-c off).
> Anyone had experience with Alfa's reportedly "high efficiency"
> (non-stock) radiator for the 164?
> Any suggestions I should try?!
Try to find out the actual temp. see above for the digital thermometer
which can be pointed at different parts of the system to diagnose it.
>Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:30:39 -0400
>From: (Don Black)
>Subject: coolantemp
>
>here are some facts which you can arrange to suit yoar situation.
>1. running change; all 24v, "late" 12v was a cooling system re-route to
>permit faster heater warm up in winter. should be in shop manual and parts
>fiche.
>2. thermostats were changed from 82=BA to 87=BAC as a running change, fiche
>should reference
>3. r.c. on 2 speed fanswitch, see fiche
>4. r.c. for new dual pass radiator, same period as 1. above
>
>for the "latest" you need all of the above "late" hardware. colin verilli
>has all the microfiche and is planting them on his 164 website, contact him
>for part numbers. again, no secrets, all documented.
From: Frederick Sharpless
Subject: RE: 164 Engine temp
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:27:37 -0400
Responding to Richard Kingsley's post:
I've owned a 1991 164S for 4 years and 100,000 miles (has 125,000 total) =
and it runs about the same temperature as yours. When I first bought it =
I was quite concerned, as in my experience you NEVER let an aluminum =
engine get hot.
The "usual" hot of around 100C (215F +/- for us here) seems to produce =
no ill effects, but, there isn't much room for problems. The resistor =
for the fan (in the upper left corner of radiator shroud) is known for =
going bad, and I believe there was a recall, or at least a service kit =
for these. The connectors to the resistor are known to corrode and =
cook, too. Keep them clean and smear some grease on them. Replace if =
the look cooked. I don't know of the relays, the fan or the sensor (in =
the left tank of the radiator) being a problem.
The fan should come on slow about 85 C and high around 100 C. It =
shouldn't get hotter on high. This will never be a car well suited to =
running the air conditioner stuck in traffic on a 100 F day in North =
Carolina, though. It must not get so hot in Italy.
Or maybe the best solution is that probably intended by the designers =
"Drive fast."
Rick Sharpless
Greensboro NC
1991 164S daily driver, fast and getting faster
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 00:11:33 EDT
From: bjanesi@juno.com (Bradley J. Anesi)
Subject: 164 Temperature Woes Solved
I should have already written this up in the Owner, but I SHOULD have
done at lot of things I've not quite gotten to....
Here was my solution (all available from Alfa Heaven) to keeping the 164
temperature in check...
1) Replace radiator with oversized aluminum unit
2) Replace single fan with twin low-power 10" fans
3) Replace complicated (and prone to failure) switch circuit with a
simple variable (always hot) switch circuit with probe that inserts
between radiator fins. Since this circuit is always hot, the fans will
stay on after you shut the car down, allowing the hot air to be vented
from the engine bay. I know Fred says this isn't necessary (and he's
right), but remember that engine temperature typically rises immediately
after shut-down when coolant stops circulating.
The results:
With the switch set to come on at about 195 degree F' the gauge never
showed beyond about 205 after being stuck in traffic for half an hour.
Also, the power draw of the twin fans is less than the single stock fan,
so the voltage doesn't kick down so dramatically like it does when the
stock fan comes on.
Hope this helps somebody,
Brad Anesi
'91 Project 164Q 5-speed
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:09:48 -0700
From: karlcchen@juno.com (KARL C CHEN)
Subject: 164 coolant boiling and some misc. thought
Last week on my way to Los Angles on I-5. I get off highway
to fill up the gas after sustained high speed driving in hot
weather. The temp gauge indicates a little over 200F.
As I was filling gas, I opened the engine hood and was shocked
to find the coolant was boiling and spilling out from the
level sensor cap. I didn't dare to try to tighten it as I
know the weak plastic cap could let go when tighten in hot
condition.
I was able to get to Los Angles without fixing anything and
without making stop. The next morning I found what's wrong:
The O-ring I replaced in stead of flat rubber gasket in level
sensor cap is getting loose and didn't keep high pressure.
When engine was shut down immediately from high speed driving,
the coolant stop to circulate and some hot spot in engine start
to boil coolant as it didn't has enough pressure to raise its
boiling point. As long as engine is running, it didn't boil, but
as soon as I shut down the engine, the coolant started to boil.
I just tighten the cap and it solved the problem.
Karl 92 164S
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 23:44:02 -0400
From: bjanesi@juno.com
Subject: Re: Overheating 164
danny pham <robustful@yahoo.com> writes...
>I need some MAJOR MAJOR advice here. I have a 91 164L. Cracked the
>radiator due to heat. Had a new one from Paul Spruel in Georgia. Temp
>used to stay @175. Now goes 231 after rad. replacement. Radiator Fan
>is bypassed to be on at all times. 8 month old H20 pump. Fluid lvl.
>good. Changing temp. sensor next. Still overheated today. red light
>went on. Anyone have any ideas?
Danny- First, why do you have the fan wired to be on all the time?
There really is no need for this ...even in Atlanta. Anyway, here's
some possibilities...
1) Temp sensor bad (possibly shorting to ground, sending max temp signal)
2) Blown head gasket - have you checked the back of the oil filler cap
for mayo?
3) Infant mortality of water pump
4) New rad' clogged (with what?)
5) Bad thermostat (not opening)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 21:31:24 -0700
From: Karl Maxon <KLMAXON@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: 164 coolant temp
Alfisti - its time to weigh in on the 164 coolant temp thread. Per the
'91-'93 manual, section 07-3: The thermostat opens when the coolant
temperature reaches about 87C (188F). The warning lamp turns on when
the coolant temperature increases above 115C (239F). Elsewhere in the
manual a description is given about the rad. fan whereby the low speed
kicks in at 196F, and the high speed kicks in at 212F. When the air
cond. is on the low speed fan is on all the time.
Now, in addition to the above, the system is pressurized at approx.
15lbs. Per Redline Oil data the boil point of plain water at 15psi is
approx. 220F, and for 50/50 glycol/water it's approx. 245. 100% glycol
is approx 260, all at 15psi.
The 164 header tank is prone to leaking/splitting at the large seam
around the middle, and the header tank cap can get gummed up or fail. I
just replaced both. $25 total from the dealer.
Note that in very hot temps that upon engine shut-off the coolant may
boil-over without the 15 psi, since the boil-point of the coolant may be
too low without the pressure. This is the condition I was
experiencing. First I replaced the header tank because I noted the
seepage, and then tested the cap and noted it did not hold any pressure
at all. Replaced both and the engine runs consistently around 190-210
in 100 degree outside ambient temp (consistent with the manual temps
noted above). The coolant level now only rises and falls approx. 1/2-3/4
inch between stone cold and super hot compared to large fluctuations
before I replaced the header tank and cap.
Regarding sealants - several people recommended Edelbrock Gasgacinch,
which I used when I replaced the water pump a few weeks ago. Worked
great.
I would suggest sending an e-mail to Redline: Redline@Redlineoil.com
and ask for them to send you a brochure/test data pamphlet for their
WaterWetter. There's a good discussion regarding boiling points, heat
transfer, etc.
Anyway, I submit that operating temps for the 164 that are between the
amounts specified by Alfa above are A-OK, and everything is operating as
designed. I'm personally thrown off everytime I jump from my Spider,
where temp is approx. 180, and get into the 164 and see the temp gauge
climb what looks like WAY past that 175 mark to its "normal" operating
range.
Happy motoring - Karl Maxon
'72 Spider
'91 164L
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:59:19 -0400
Subject: engine temp
From: rkwok <rkwok@wenet.net>
I have the same problem when I bought my 91 164L 18 mo. ago. It constantly
running at 210+F. Problem is the low speed fan switch/sensor that always fail in
the 164.
I did lots of research on the web try to find the proper temp for
any V6 engine. I think the best is around 175F to 185F. Forget what the machine
told you 210F is normal, it is NOT normal. I tried every possible way, including
new Alfa-made low-speed sensor(top of the radiator), change a lower temp
coolant sensor from VW, put RedLine "Water Wetter". Nothing seems to work.
Finally, I found a temp. control unit from Alfa Heaven that allows me to adjust the
temp from 170 to 220(you need to do some wire modifications). Check out their
web page. I set it at 175F
Result: Wonderful, my 164 rev much smoother,
probably more HP since less heat means less friction, oil color will not turn dark/
black until 5,000 miles(The engine oil used to darken in less the 500mi). I
think that its a MUST on all Alfas. I can give you more details of how'd I
installed mine if you want.
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:21:20 -0700
From: "Rich Lasner"
Subject: 164 Running Hot
I've posted this info before, but thought it may have been overlooked as
there's still a lot of discussion about hot-running 164s. All three of my
164S' have run at 175F at highway speed then jumped up into the 240-250F
zone in stop and go traffic on hot days. Last week I installed the Tom Zat
14" high power fan, his selectable temp fan turn on control with temp probe
(which replace the stock relays and temp sensor) and his 165F thermostat. My
car now sits at 175F to 190F no matter what the situation. After replacing
every stock cooling system part in the car, I can say this rig is the only
thing that totally worked for me. Zat sells a really expensive oversized
radiator, but with the results I've achieved, I say try his other parts
first. The usual disclaimers. The stuff just works.
Rich Lasner
92 164S
Mill Valley CA
From: Thomas Woods
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 15:57:34 -0600
Subject: 164 Coolant Leak
Mr. Domby recently inquired about coolant leaking from an unknown location
in his 164. I had a similar problem with my 164 and finally discovered
that small amounts of coolant were leaking from the plastic coolant
reservoir between the small reservoir cap through the center of which the
low coolant sensor is mounted and the reservoir threads corresponding to
that cap. I placed a 5 inch square of aluminum foil three layers thick and
having a central hole for accepting the sensor between the cap and
reservoir threads, and tightened the cap down. The leak stopped. The leak
appears to have been related to the reservoir thread ends having been
slightly stripped.
Tom Woods
Minnesota
From: Mike Salter
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:31:45 PDT
Subject: Wter loss saga (164) resolved
Hi everyone,
The long running water loss saga is now over. I went into the aircon area looking for water from
the heater hoses but found it all to be dry. I then took the car for a run and looked for the water
coming out and sure enough it came as before where the outlet for the air con condensation was
but I could see no water was coming out at the heater end. I then dismantled the radiatior area and
to my surprise when I took the plate off which holds the coil I noticed a crack in the tank at the right side of the radiator (looking from the front) where the fan is apparently rubbing against it. All
phenomena are explained. Low water loss dribbles down the side of the radiator and comes out by
the outlets. This happens in summer and when the aircon is on because that is when the fan
engages and the vibration moves the crack enough to let water out. There is no water loss in winter
because the fan never cuts in so no vibration and no movement of the crack. Radiator out and
undergoing repair!!
Mike Salter
164 3.0L
From: Tonywoodtw
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:42:32 EST
Subject: re: 164 Coolant Leak Mystery
<<
My '91 194S started leaking coolant in the driveway while parked at night, a
few weeks ago. The level in the reservoir doesn't drop much, ............
The drip comes .... off the bottom of the crankshaft pulley >>>>
Mark
Sounds like those little hoses from the thermostat to the cylinder heads.
Just did same job on my 164 and wasn't sure that was the cause until I had it
apart and could see the remains of antifreeze on the hose. Leaked just as you
describe. The hoses didn't look bad when I got them off (I replaced them
anyway) but there was some minor surface corrosion on the alloy stub-pipes of
the heads where they fit. Cleaned that with emery cloth. It's OK now.
Cheap and fairly easy to do. Remember also to get 2 new thermostat gaskets
(they are different, as are those hoses). Don't worry if the water level
drops after the job: it takes a week to settle in my experience.
Tony Wood
'89 164 3.0 V6 Lusso
From: bjanesi@juno.com (Bradley J. Anesi)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:39:25 EST
Subject: 164 Coolant Leak -Reply
Chris Weyn and Catherine Vanhentenryck writes...
>I don't know if the 164 has the same setup as the GTV6 does around the
>thermostat, but on the GTV6, there are two little stubby hoses between
>the engine block and the thermostat housing. These are often neglected
>because they are not easily accessible...
These hoses are in the same location on the 164. In fact, they're
probably a bit more difficult to get to on the 164 due to the tight
confines of the engine bay. This is why I recently suggested replacing
these whenever the water pump is replaced on the 164 ...which should be
MUCH less frequently than the Milano as it is a different design.
Incidently, I still have some of the red Samco silicon hose for this
application if anyone is interested.
From: McNeon
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:53:34 EDT
Subject: Another 164 cooling system detail
If you haven't looked at your coolant reservoir recently, you might want to.
WhiIe I had mine off doing another small job on my '91, I noticed that the
plastic tank had split on the hidden side.
The split was just below and parallel to the midline seam and actually went
all the way through the wall; I'm surprised the system held any pressure at
all. If this had gone undetected into warm weather (when coolant temps
routinely go above 212F) I would have been in trouble.
You can check the tank visually by removing the two securing screws and
swinging it out slightly. Another clue: my old tank had begun to bulge on its
long, straight dimensions, and the raised seams were slightly cracked.
I wouldn't recommend trying to repair this tank, since it is pressurized and
can cause catastrophic damage if it fails. Also, it would be much tougher to
repair in an emergency than, say, a burst radiator hose. Besides, replacements
are cheap - under $20. It might even be a good idea to replace the tank
routinely every five years or so.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:56:30 -0800
From: Nizam Zambri
Subject: Re: water pipe in 164LS
> Hi can anyone help me. I have a water leak on my 164 24V. The water is
> leaking on to the gearbox housing.
> I believe it is coming from the metal water pipe which is between the two
> heads (because I can see water sitting
> underneath it), which sits underneath the inlet manifold . Can any one tell
> me how to remove this pipe safely,
My 164LS did the exact same thing after I replaced the waterpump/timing
belt. It turned out not to be the pipe that you see running in the valley
between the heads, rather, it was one of the two hoses that connected the
thermostat housing with the pipe.
The original Alfa clamps, which you have to operate gingerly with a large
pair of pliers, are apparently good for only one or two
assemblies/disassemblies. I replaced them with some Swedish made clamps
and the leak went away.
By the way, the pipe is actually bolted into the engine, and is just a
conduit for the water to get from the radiator into the thermostat housing.
The 155V6 has the same arrangement. I don't think the 12-valve 164 has
this pipe.
Nizam
From: Brad Anesi
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:19:18 -0800
Subject: R&R of 164 Thermostat fixes cold running problem
Yesterday (Saturday) I replaced the thermostat in the 164, due to the
slow warm-up and cold running (135 F') problem I was having when the
outdoor temperature was below freezing. The job was relatively easy,
especially if you don't count the fact that I somehow thought I could defy
gravity and prevent the coolant from the reservoir from exiting out the
thermostat when I first pulled the hose off ...oh well. Of course, this did
confirm my suspicion that the thermostat was stuck open .
I just returned home from a 10 mile drive in 18 degree F' weather.
Previously, the coolant temperature never would have made it past the
137.5 F' mark - tonight, it was there within 5 minutes and then happily
marched up to 175, where it stayed. Hell, the heat even worked!
My thanks to Joe, Tom, & Fred for their input.
Brad
'91 164B 5-speed
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:40:29 -0500
From: sid_l_trest@amoco.com
Subject: Re: 164 Water Pump
The r/r of the 164 is a pretty straightforward job. While you have the
front of the engine apart, replace the cooling system hoses, gaskets
at the thermostat (I think that there are 3), cooling system hoses
behind the thermostat, serpentine belt and timing belt. The alternator
will have to be loosened and swung out of the way to get the pump off.
When you replace the coolant, be certain to bleed the air out via the
bolt on the top of the thermostat housing.
The most challenging part is getting the #$%^ timing belt covers off.
The most technical part of the job is getting the new timing belt back
on correctly - if you are not certain how to do this then get someone
who is or if you are knowledgeable be certain to refer to the shop
manual, it is very easy to get confused about the timing marks and
mistakes are disastrous. There are several on the flywheel and the
shop manual indicates the correct one. I lucked out since my marks
were verified by paint dots on the cam gears. One more caution, never
turn the engine backwards!!!
Hope this helps,
Sid
'91 164L
From: Thomas Woods
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 17:40:29 -0600
Subject: Cooling Fan
Carl of CBinns@aol.com wrote:
. . . Finally (for now),I read about the fix for the fan
that comes on seemingly too late when the car is hot. At what temp does
this new gizmo activate the fan?
(3) Cooling Fan. There are several gizmos you might consider replacing at
the same time in the 164s trouble-prone cooling fan system. These include:
(a) the bypass power resistor disposed on the upper back side of the
radiator/cooling fan shroud (older versions of this resistor look like a
big spring that belongs on a refrigerator -- new ones are blue in color and
shouldn't cost more than about $25); (b) the temperature sending unit
located on the bottom portion of the radiator (also about $25); and most
importantly (c) the two relays for the cooling fan circuit; these relays
are located under the small plastic rectangular cover located nearest the
radiator and cooling fan and behind the top cross brace defining the front
of the engine bay (each relay costs about $30). If you replace all the
foregoing elements your cooling problems should clear up. If they don't
you may have faulty wiring somewhere.
Tom Woods
1991 164 Base
-------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:58:42 +0000
From: "Frank Schembri, Jr."
Subject: 164 cooling and seat motors
...
Second, I just completed a simple mod. to the engine cooling fan circuit
to get it on at a lower temp. My dealer suggested eliminating the low
fan speed resistor which makes the fan come on at high speed intitally.
This seems of minimal use. Replacing the coolant temp sensor though
works wonders. I used a late model VW Golf sender ($20) that comes on
at 85 degrees C. A 95 degree model is also available. It threads right
in. The only mod. is to the harness. Cut-off the wires half way
between the old sender and the connectors, and install 3 fast-on
crimps. The ground connection (black wire) goes to the terminal marked
+ (yes plus), and the two remaining wires (+12v) with the key on two the
remaining 2 terminals. Easy access to the sending unit is available by
removing the small plastic cover adjacent to the drivers side headlamp
(1 sheet metal screw). 10 minutes and your done. If you move fast, you
don't even have to drain the radiator.
--------------------------
From: Mark Jones
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:57:00 -0500
Subject: 164 Cooling Fan Resistor
Re: Chris Broz low speed colling fan update question:
The part upgrade for the low speed cooling fan resistor is a must if
yours goes bad. It is not worth doing until yours goes. You know yours
is bad when the fan does not work at all on low speed, but just comes on
at high speed when it already gets too hot. The old part couldn't take
the heat of being located behind the radiator. You can probably only
get the new part, I doubt Alfa sells the old style anymore. (The
original FIAT part looks like something designed in the 1950s.) There
have been several upgrades over the years, the new FIAT part looks very
different (designed this decade) and has a different style electrical
connection. Find a few crimp connectors and scraps of heavy guage wire,
and your on the road!
---------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 11:06:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Dave Hillman
Subject: 164 temperature
In the latest Import Repair Magazine it has the the following tip for
Alfa Romeo 164 models. I will pass it on without any first hand
knowledge of it's accuracy.
Alfa Romeo 164 models with temperature gauge readings above normal,
even after thermostats, water pump and coolant flushes check out
okay.
In some 164 models improper resistance between the sender and gauge
is due to a factory wire harness mistake. A 100 ohm resistor between
sender and harness allows the gauge to read normal. 100 ohms will
drop gauge 30 degrees to read normal temperature.
This was submitted to the magazine by Charles F. Christ of Speed
Research and Restoration.
From: Mark Jones
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:34:00 -0400
Subject: Another 164 radiator fan Q
My 92 164L was overheating, and I replaced the notorious low speed fan
resistor, which I *ASSUMED* was bad. No, it turned out the thermo fan
switch was bad. It was switching the fan on at a much higher
temperature. Until the replacement fan switch came, I just bypassed the
old thermo fan switch so that the fan comes on low speed at all times.
Temp is nice and steady just above 175F.
From: "Sedon, Doug"
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:22:58 -0500
Subject: low speed/temp fan sender for 164
joe,
the low speed/temp fan sending unit is at the top left-hand corner of
the radiator housing. ( i was gonna say driver's side, but don't y'all
steer from the passenger seat down in melbourne? :>) it is an air temp
sensor, not a hoh temp sensor, so no antifreeze mess. about a 15 min
replacement. two screws and a wire plug. there's a relay bracket at
the front, that if removed, makes access a lot easier.
however, you say your fan comes on at 200f, and shuts off at 185f.
sounds to me like it's working ok. when my sender failed, the fan
didn't come on 'til 235f. it must be getting into hot season
'down-under' - is this your first 164 hot season? these cars run hot.
feedback from any other a/d'ers?
From: bjanesi@juno.com (Bradley J. Anesi)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:12:03 EST
Subject: 164 Variable Temperature Control Circuit
Thought I'd pass this along in case anyone else is interested. FWIW,
I've seen it in action and it works well. ...Brad
----------------Forwarded Message-----------------
Brad,
If you think it might help others, you can post on the Digest.
I have received a message from Brad indicating your interest in
the coolant temperature control circuit that I have built for my
Alfa 164L. It was the result of owning/working on Italian cars
for many years. They all tend to run hot. Although this may make
them efficient with fuel, it certainly shortens their life and cause
headaches for the owners.
The simple circuit makes use of the varying signal generated by the
engine
temperature sending unit, as the engine warms up. Two rheostats in the
circuit allow you to set the temperatures at which you want the fan
to go on and off (within an allowable range). The circuit can trigger
either the low speed or the high speed fan relays. In my car, turning
on the the low speed is enough to maintain a stable engine temperature
under most ambient conditions.
As I mentioned to Brad in a previuos message, I designed and built
the circuit a couple of years ago with parts used in military
applications. I had trouble making it work initially. So, I put it
away until early this year, when I finally got it to work. I'm in the
process of building one using equivalent off the shelf parts. I'll also
write a small procedure to install it in the car. I'll get in touch with
you as soon as I'm done.
I hope this information is useful to you and other Alfa owners.
Ciao,
Antonio
riso@eccvax.kearfott.com
--------- End forwarded message ----------
From: Bill Harkell
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 04:01:26 -0500
Subject: 164 service tip
I have a tip for 164 owners.
I had stopped the other day to add air to the tires on my 168, and it
took about 8-10 minutes. I left the car idling, and to my surprise, when
I got back in the temp gauge was pinned. I lifted the hood and the fan
was not running. Well, smart or not, I figured I needed to get it cooled
down so I entered the nearby 4 lane, and got up to around 60 and the
temp came down quickly. My dealer was nearby, so I headed there and
caught all green lights, thankfully.
The tech there said, "No big deal" [which surprised me], and he
proceeded to show me a 40 amp open fuse just behind the coolant bottle.
It had corroded/erroded and broken, thus rendering the fan inoperative.
Amazingly :o) wink wink, they had on in stock. Replaced it and all is
well again. So, if your fan goes out, look there first and maybe save
some hassle. $2.15 later the car was cool again.
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 17:55:59 -0500
From: Rodney Tidwell
Subject: 164 hard to crank, runs poorly, codes and where to get the connector
We've had a '91 164 automatic since last summer. It now has 65K miles,
having accumulated about 8K since we bought it. Shortly after purchase,
it started running poorly and became increasingly hard to start. This
was eventually traced, with the help of a few phone calls to Mr.
DiMatteo, to a crack in the small fuel line within the tank.
It was shortly after this time that I got internet access, discovered
the AD and the various alfa pages. I learned that quite a few 164
owners had trouble with the aforementioned fuel line and many had
problems with the connection for the temperature sensor.
Up until about a week ago the engine ran fine in the 164. Then I
started having very similar troubles to those that required the fuel
line. This time I ran the Motronic self-test and got code 1-2-1-4.
(--- Someone had asked about the codes on v06.019---The Motronic codes
and procedures for getting the same are on Colin Verrilli's 164 page and
I believe they were provided by Mr. DiMatteo---) The code I got related
to extremely high or very low tempretures or a problem in this area. So
I looked at the sensor and connector. When I wiggled the connector, one
of the wires broke free. Well, the wire looked pretty corroded and with
the other clues, I figured I had found the problem. But, I worried that
I wouldn't be able to find a connector, especially on Sunday.
I went to the nearby Discount Auto Parts Store (that was the name of
it), handed the guy behind the counter the old connector, said it was a
Bosch connector for an Alfa Romeo temperature sensor and asked if he had
anything like it. After he finished asking me who made Alfa Romeo and
receiving the response, he disappeared behind a parts rack, returning
shortly with a grin and a package. What he brought back was a GM fuel
injection connector that was identical (except color) to the old one.
It cost $1.99. A little solder, some shrink wrap, a few plastic wire
ties, a bit of anitfreeze and an hour later, the car was running fine
with no more error codes.
Corrosion from coolant, water, etc. was part of the caue. The rest
seems to be what Mark Jones pointed out - not enough slack in the wires
between the connector at the water pump and where they are clipped to
the sheet metal.
I hope this information can be of help to someone as that posted by
others has been to me.
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:13:06 -0400
From: ascher@juno.com (ascher baer)
Subject: 164S high temp. quirks
my 91 164L began putting me on edge when it began overheating; driving
above 40 mph seemed to be the only thing which would bring it down.
after a boil over i discovered that the relay to the engine fan was gone
- replacing it solved the problem.
related...assuming the reading on the temp. gauge is reasonably accurate
(somewhat of an if, i know), what is a good running temp, and when should
i begin worrying? i understand the thermostat doesn't even turn on until
175 degrees.
ascher baer
91 164L
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:03:25 -0400
From: "Sedon, Doug (OD)"
Subject: 164 - 40amp fan fuse on fire-wall
rob,
i found a fuse that fits at our local (MD) trak auto parts store - which is
actually amazing, cuz they're usually useless for anything except oil. it's a
copper fuse in a li'l green box, w/a clear view indicator on one side. on the
side opposite the view indicator, there are two copper tabs, which you can use
to screw the fuse down onto the posts.
hope this helps,
doug s.
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:47:59 EDT
From: <JALFAjr@aol.com>
Subject: Re: 164 Temp sender
On my 95 164Q, the guage worked and the light came on hot. I replaced the
sensor and that fixed the problem, so it appears that there really are two
inputs in the sensor. (I had tried the clean the contacts, etc before
replacing the sensor, including working on a good ground connection, so it
wasn't just removing and reinstalling the sensor that caused the problem to go
away.)
John Justus
71 1750 GTV
95 164Q
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:12:10 EDT
From:
Subject: Re: 164 Radiator Light
Joe, have you taken the sensor out and cleaned it? Mine (91 164S) was covered
with some kind of grey oily stuff and didn't want to move up and down freely.
I wiped it off and it performed flawlessly for more than three years until I
sold the car.
John Justus
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:11:08 -0700
From: "Dr. Ted Siverns" <tsiverns@planeteer.co>>
Subject: 164 Thermo Switch
Oops I made an error on my posting re thermo switch for 164. Among the
replacements (to be more specific) is one for a 1985-1993 VW Golf which
comes on at 79C & 85 C. The correct Behr # is 321 959 481 M. As I indicated,
I have had no signs of overheating all summer.
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:08:54 -0700
From: "Rich Lasner"
Subject: Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:08:54 -0700
In V7 #126, Mike Israel writes: "The cooling fan on my '91 164S no longer
turns on. I have also noted that the temp light comes on frequently even
when engine is stone cold.
I checked the 40 amp fuse strip. Any suggestions on what to look at next
and/or how to check whatever I should be checking?"
Mike- You have two separate systems at work here. The system that starts the
fan is connected to an air temp. sensor in the fan shroud that sends signals
to two relays- one for the low fan speed, the other for the high fan speed.
These relays are under the second black plastic cover from the right when
looking into the engine bay from the front of the car. You've already found
the 40 amp fuse strip on the firewall. All of these parts are perishable and
had to be replaced in my 164S. See if the low speed fan comes on when you
turn on the air conditioning. That might help you determine if the low
speed fan relay is working.
The temperature gauge and overheat warning light are connected to a sensor
that sits in the water pump on the belt side of your engine. If the ground
is bad, or the contacts are corroded, you can get the kind of readings
you're talking about. Try taking the part out and cleaning it, then check
the contacts and clean with DeOxit or similar contact cleaner. I finally
replaced mine to stop the red light from coming on, but the new sensor reads
20F higher than the old one did.
Rich Lasner
Mill Valley CA
92 164S (90k miles, daily driver)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:45:15 EST
From: Genyee@aol.com
Subject: Re: alfa-digest V7 #320
If you look carefully, I think the low speed resistor read 0.23 ohm,
not 23 ohms ! With 23 ohms resisitor, the motor will not even turn.
Say fan motor is drawing 20A normal, that means it has equvalent resistance
of 0.6 ohms. A 0.23 ohm in serial will reduce current to 14A. But a 23 ohms
will reduce current to 0.5 A.
The old low speed resistor is OK most of the time, It is the old style
connectors which reside on resistor itself that cause the problem.
Since the resistance value is so low, any bad connection will cause
a great deal of heat plus the resistor already generate a lot of heat.
This cause entire plastic and wires to melt.... You can not soldered
wires on old resistor either, since the heat will melt the soldering.
Unless you do brass welding there.
Get new style resistor with new connectors on both sides as well. Or
just bypass the resistor( soldering both connectors together ) making
low-speed fan a high speed.
Karl
<<
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:34:52 EST
From: VLADDS@aol.com
Subject: 164 Cooling
Can anyone explain this to me:
the "supplementary cooling resistor', the one that generates the low speed,
shows zero resistance (is marked 23 ohms and my meter cannot detect such low
anyway), untill i heat it up.Well when it is hot, the switch inside it goes
"clic" and resistance is infinity.The wiring diagram and the operating
description in the cardisc don't say a word about termal capabillities of the
supplementary resistor.The inside switch looks a lot like the safety termo-
switch of a microwave.
Thank you
Vlad
'91 164 L
-- >>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 11:17:29 -0400
From: "Colin Verrilli"
Subject: Re: 164 New Radiator
"Taylor Smith" writes:
> Has anyone used the "new" radiator retrofit that Alfa came out with for the
> 164?
>
> I was suprised to see no postings on it and can't find any literature. It
> is supposed to be "smaller" but more efficient that the OEM radiator on my
> 164S (1991). Any thoughts, anyone??
I took a look at the microfiche and found several running changes to the
164 cooling system. Here's a list. Problem is most don't have dates for the
break-in, only "tel." numbers. Anyone know what these are and how they relate
to VIN numbers?
Mod 9797 - New coupling sleeve and corresponding water inlet filler (tel. 61892
19)
This just has a new lower pipe from the water pump and overflow hose
Mod 9820 - New soleniod control thermometric switch (11/90)
60559862 new thermostat for B, L models
Mod 9836 - New plug for nourice (tel. 6206711)
New cap for overflow bottle with drain hose
Mod 9941 - New solution with shortened circuit for water return (tel. 6229911)
This covers several hoses, pipes, clamps, unions and a new water
pump for S models.
Mod 256 - New water hoses with integral 3-ways (tel. 6243883)
This is just a clamp.
Mod 257 - New single tier water radiator (tel. 6244309)
60576390 radiator
60574557 bracket
60574522 gasket
Mod 330 - New water output sleeves at pipes for cyl heads (11/91)
These are the 2 short hoses behind the thermostat block.
If my assumption is correct that the "tel" number is sequential according to
production and correspond to the serial number, then these modifications happenned
in the 10/90 - 11/91 timeframe.
Any further details would be welcome for the 164 page...
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 12:34:42 -0400
From: "Colin Verrilli"
Subject: Re: numbers (164 cooling system mods)
Thanks John for the research.
So it appears that the "tel." numbers are in fact the last 7 digits of the
VIN and thus appears that these mods took place mid-1990 to endyear-1991
(mfg date).
Note that there was also a change for the low speed fan resistor in 1994.
See the TSB at:
http://www.digest.net/alfa/FAQ/164/b079402.htm
and the saved posts at:
http://www.digest.net/alfa/FAQ/164/notes_07.htm#sender