Clutch
From: unltd-ltd@juno.com (B. D. Zelazny)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 17:11:49 EST
Subject: Premature Clutch Wear
Mark wrote:
Subject: Clutch 164
I purchased a 1991 164B about 6 weeks ago with 55K, it appears to be in
real good shape. The clutch was replaced at 50K and seemed fine when I
bought it, however after a hard drive over the Rocky Mountains it seemed
to deteriorate very quickly. From a start it seems to be on or off and
today it started slipping in every gear, no problems shifting so I think
the clutch disc may be okay, especially since it has less than 10K on
it. Does anyone have any idea why I would experience a sudden loss of
clutch.
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Check under the air box for a bracket with a disk about an inch thick and
2 1/2 inches in diameter . It will have two hydraulic lines, one of
which leads to the slave cylinder (as I recall). If this disk has been
removed - it's the clutch "dampener" to reduce the stress on the clutch
in hard shifting - you should avoid "slamming" the clutch or the clutch
will wear out prematurely. The disks are usually removed when they fail
(which causes the clutch pedal to hang when depressed). If you continue
to drive the car once the dampener has failed it will also severely
shorten the life of the clutch. Mine was recently removed after it failed
under hard driving conditions with about 50k miles on it.
----------------------
From: bjanesi@juno.com (Bradley J. Anesi)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:55:45 EST
Subject: Re:164B [clutch repair]
JLEEALFA@aol.com writes...
>My 91 164b has 100,000 miles and it is time to renew the clutch. The
>transmission has also developed a "rattle" or clicking sound
I'd suspect the throw-out bearing, but this is just a SWAG. At 100K
miles, all three primary clutch components should be replaced regardless
of apparent condition.
>Since I will have to pull the transmission anyway, I plan to remove the
>engine to make changing the timing belt easier. While everything is out I am
>contemplating some other modifications. Do 164 S pistons and liners fit
>without any other modifications?
If you are pulling the motor and tranny, I would make sure you absolutely
upgrade the input shaft bearing to the ball bearing type found on all
'92+ cars and all of the 164 S'. The roller bearing, found only on the
'91 B&L, is prone to failure, and requires the transmission to be pulled
to replace.
------------------------------
From: bjanesi@juno.com (Bradley J. Anesi)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 21:41:27 EDT
Subject: 164 Clutch -Reply
Jonathan Ross writes (twice)...
>I may be purchasing a 1992 Alfa 164L 5-speed....the car is perfect
>EXCEPT.......a very heavy clutch, and juddering on take-off. I think a
>new clutch is needed, and would like advice on likely cost, and also why
>is the clutch so heavy?
Jonathan - When "tired" and in need of replacement, I've found the
required clutch effort on a 164 to be the highest of any vehicle I've
ever driven. How many miles on this car? 164 clutch life varies
greatly, from 50K to well over 100K, depending on the type of driving and
the driver. I just replaced mine at 70K (not a job for the faint of
heart BTW), and the pedal effort is now silly easy.
If you're going to have someone else do the job for you, figure about 8
hrs labor plus $200 for parts.
From: "Steve Margolis"
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 12:13:14 EST5EDT
Subject: Re: sticking clutch
Regarding the sticking clutch: Peter Krause notes that the pivot
shaft at the transmission case is a trouble spot on some 164s. The
shaft is positioned in such a way that moisture can enter the bore
and cause problems. For rough clutch engagement, he
recommended a dose of WD 40 or equivalent at that pivot. This spot
is well away from the friction surfaces of the clutch, so there does
not seem to be a risk of contamination. I tried this and it does
help.
From: "B. D. & Petei Zelazny"
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 17:37:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Clutch
Eric wrote:
> I own a 1992 164S and the cluch doesn't feel correct. It seems to stick
> sometimes when I push down on the pedel. How much would it cost to replace it? Does it need to be replaced? Thank for the help.
It could be that the dampener is failing. This is an ~one inch thick
disk between the master cylinder and the slave cylinder. It can be
bypassed.
After it is removed from the system *DO NOT* "slam" the clutch when
shifting or you will have to replace the clutch very soon. Just treat
the clutch gingerly and you will have no further problems with the
clutch until something else fails due to normal wear and tear (if the
dampener is the culprit).
Do not drive the car any more than is absolutely necessary until the
dampener is bypassed or you could burn up the clutch.
Bernie
`91 164S (better half's)
From: "Reddy, Jay"
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:23:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Clutch
Hi Eric,
Your 164S has hydraulic clutch actuation with an in-line 'delay' device
which is supposed to allow your clutch to engage progressively no matter
how fast you take your foot off the clutch pedal. I am of the opinion
that this device only shortens your clutch life by causing it to slip,
also there is a diaphram in this piece that disintegrates and fouls your
hydraulics. The best thing to do, I believe is remove this device and
toss it and run fresh fluid through your system. This will probably fix
your problem, severe cases of contamination usually require replacement
of the clutch slave cylinder, good luck.
From: tony.quinn@rhq.gecalsthom.co.uk
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:09:04 +0000
Subject: 164 Squeaking Clutch Pedal
> Anyone with a RHD 164 had a squeaking clutch pedal? Mine does,
and so far I have found no cure. I'm living with it.
Dear Tony W,
I had this problem with one of my 164s. In my case it was an easy fix.
With a little contortion, you will be able to see the hinge at the top
of the clutch pedal lever. Soak it with WD40 or similar whilst
operating the clutch. Although this may not be the correct lubricant ,
it worked for me and saved me having to do any disassembly work in what
would be a very uncomfortable position. It has been OK since (5 months).
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 23:36:46 -1000
From: Rupert Kwok
Subject: stiff clutch
My clutch pedal recently makes a loud squeaking noise. My mechanic told
me my clutch is too heavy and causing the squeak. He said I need a new
clutch because the clutch dics is mis-aligned (or something like that).
He said a normal clutch on 164 is very light.
I wouldn't know what is normal since I bought the 164 used. I am surely
not convinced that my clutch is bad w/ only 32k miles. I removed the
clutch dampener as someone has suggested here. No luck!
Finally, I changed the clutch hose and everything is fine. The pedal is
light and clutch effort is much less. Now my 164 goes faster and rev
smoother. I'm not kidding. I can feel the difference. I always thought
164 should go faster when I first bought the car. Now I know why.
From: Mark Jones
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:35:00 -0400
Subject: 164S hard clutch reply
I have been away from my office for a while, and am responding to a
question from 20 Aug.
Someone had a clutch replaced in a 164S and later noticed it became
stiffer. The pressure plate springs will get stiffer from heat over
time.
But the other problem, of really hard clutch resistance if you jam the
pedal quickly is another cause. There is a valve which limits the flow
of fluid, so you can't "dump" the clutch. This valve a few inches away
from the slave cylinder, went bad years ago on my 164S. After talking
to Mr. Fred DiMatteo, I decided I would not replace this valve, but
simply remove it and toss it in the trash. The clutch fluid line that
entered the valve is long enough to route directly to the slave
cylinder. No new hoses are needed. One less part on the car to go bad
again. My kind of repair.
From: Robert Hahn
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:02:28 -0400
Subject: 164S Clutch Problem Solved
In an earlier digest I described a clutch problem
in which the effort was high and got worse if a
quick shift was made and as ambient
temperatures rose. The fix was simple, the
flexible hose to the clutch slave cylinder had
deteriorated internally. A new hose made the
problem disappear and the clutch effort
remarkably light. This is not the first time I have
heard of (although it is the first time I have
experienced) flexible hydraulic hoses
deteriorating internally without external
indicators.
From: Bill Harkell
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:19:11 -0500
Subject: 164 clutch fix
I wanted to thank the folks that recommended that I check the dampener
in between the master and slave on the 5 speed 164.
I took the step of removing it from my car and the heavy pedal effort is
gone. This may not solve it for everyone, but my clutch feels normal
now. The line from the master screws right into the slave, and is a 30
minute, easy job.
From: "Reddy, Jay"
Subject: Heavy Clutch
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:24:39 -0500
Hi Robert,
In the States our 164s come with a dampener in the hydraulic circuit
that has a diaphragm that disintegrates and lodges in the slave causing
heavy clutch-itis. Usually removing and throwing the dampener as far as
you can and then directly connecting the master to slave followed by a
thorough bleed, usually fixes the problem. In more severe cases a
replacement slave cylinder is required.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:36:31 -0500
From: bjanesi@juno.com
Subject: Re: 164 Hard Clutch (Clutch line dampener)
sm <scouple@ix.netcom.com> writes...
>After looking on the 164 faq, I found some stuff about it, specifically,
>the vibration damper. I went to find it on my car but can not locate
it.
Scott- The early cars (pre 6/90?) don't have the dampener. I suspect
this device was added mid-production year when the failures of the input
shaft bearing first starting occurring. Of course, the correct fix was
using the "S" bearing which was (finally) incorporated starting with the
'92 model years B/L models. If you don't abuse the clutch, you shouldn't
have any problem, with or without the dampener.
From: Skip Testut
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 07:59:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RE: 164 Clutch Problem -Reply
Jonathan Coates writes...
> I have gained a new problem this afternoon. My clutch pedal
>went to the floor and stayed there. I looked under the lid.....
Brad mentioned the slave cylinder (called the master cylinder in the 164
Manual), so I thought I'd add my 2cents on the master cylinder (called the
pump in the 164 manual). My 1991 LHD 164 recently suffered master
cylinder failure (couldn't get into or out of gears without pumping... great
excercise for "double clutching"). The master cylinder is relatively
easy to replace. All that's required is to drop the fuse box cover (knee
protector), drain the reservoir, unhook the connected tubing, remove the
cotter key and clevis pin, and unscrew the two bolts connecting the body of
the master cylinder to the firewall (bulkhead). Two words of advise: before
starting this operation, buy a set of crow's feet as one of the connecting
nuts is almost impossible to get to without one. Secondly, to reinsert the
clevis pin I fashioned a wire-clip to hold the clevis pin so that it could
be manipulated into place. If this is not done, inserting the clevis pin
is very, very, very frustrating.
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:28:12 +0000
From: Jonathan Coates
Subject: Re: 164 clutch replacement- youch!
In message , "Mark F. Domby" writes
>OK, I'm having to replace the clutch at 52K miles. A smash in the wallet,
>but I don't want to be stranded on one of the many hills/mountains around
>here with no where to go but down the wrong way. Anyway, the pressure plate
>and seal are being replaced as well as a bearing somewhere, according to my
>dealer, so while her guts are spilling out, should anything else be
>done/checked?
Try to get the gearchange linkage bush changed, I understand that that
is serious fun to get at with the gearbox in place.
Subject: 164 Clutch Replacement -Reply
From: bjanesi@juno.com (Bradley J. Anesi)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 23:43:30 EST
"Mark F. Domby" <dombymf5@wfu.edu> writes...
>OK, I'm having to replace the clutch at 52K miles. A smash in the wallet,
>but I don't want to be stranded on one of the many hills/mountains around
>here with no where to go but down the wrong way. Anyway, the pressure plate
>and seal are being replaced as well as a bearing somewhere, according to my
>dealer, so while her guts are spilling out, should anything else be
>done/checked? Thanks as always.
You've got the basics covered - the other thing I'd recommend (which I
forgot to do) is replacing the seal behind the flywheel. If your car is
a '91 B or L you might want to consider replacing the input shaft bearing
which is prone to failure (uprated part was installed starting in '92 and
is the replacement part for all). This does involve opening up the box,
but you're half-way there.